Movies and Edged Weapons Pt. 2

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Rick

God help me , but I do dearly love Branagh's production of Henry V .

Rick that is my favorite rendition of Henry V as well.

BTW - on the backs of those elephants, I too thought those were considered dha. And "dha" fighting on the back of the elephants!

[nechesh]

OK, i HIGHLY recommend you all go see the new Ridley Scott film "Kingdom of Heaven". The repros in it are absolutely amazing, especially some of the Muslim armor. Beautiful swords, great battle scenes, but ultimately a film more about peace than war. The acting is great, the cinematography sumptuous and Oscar-worthy. Actually worth the $8.50 and a must-see on the big screen.

[BluErf]

It was a nice movie with laudable messages of courage, honour, love, peace, humanity, faith and very importantly, an attempt (not perfect, I agree) at unbiased portrayal of both Christian and Muslim sides. And Ghassan Moussad (portraying Salahuddin) has a laser-beam stare that will burn right through you .

But too bad, many people who saw it were bickering over historical technicalities.

Now back to the arms and armour -- I like the part when Balian duelled with the Muslim cavalier for possession of the black horse. The sword (forgive me, but I do not know the name of it) used by the Muslim cavalier looked like a very efficient slasher with a mean chop.

Now, the close-up of Salahuddin's helm was a bit of a disappointment to my novice eyes. Having seen some of the more ornate helms put on auction before, I thought it could have been finer. But then again, functional armour may not be as ornate as parade fineries.

[M.carter]

Originally Posted by BluErf

It was a nice movie with laudable messages of courage, honour, love, peace, humanity, faith and very importantly, an attempt (not perfect, I agree) at unbiased portrayal of both Christian and Muslim sides. And Ghassan Moussad (portraying Salahuddin) has a laser-beam stare that will burn right through you .

But too bad, many people who saw it were bickering over historical technicalities.

Now back to the arms and armour -- I like the part when Balian duelled with the Muslim cavalier for possession of the black horse. The sword (forgive me, but I do not know the name of it) used by the Muslim cavalier looked like a very efficient slasher with a mean chop.

Now, the close-up of Salahuddin's helm was a bit of a disappointment to my novice eyes. Having seen some of the more ornate helms put on auction before, I thought it could have been finer. But then again, functional armour may not be as ornate as parade fineries.

Yeah, Ghassan Massoud was an excellent actor for this character I liked his stare when they were bombarding Jerusalem at night.

About that Duel in the beginning, that seemed so real! I felt that in any moment one of the actors might hit the other by mistake. I also noticed how 'wickedly' curved and pointed that saif was! It seems like an excellent slasher. I also noticed a very important thing, when that cavalier dismounted and started fighting balian on foot, before he started attacking, he had his forearm raised and his sword's spin over it, with the tip pointing down. Is that some sort of arabian swordsmanship?!

[nechesh]

Well, i certainly can't speak from any point of expertise, but it is my understanding that the makers went to great lengths to make the film as historically accurate as possible. While promoting the film at the Ritz Carlton in Pasadena recently they even put on a morning seminar on the Crusades presented by Donald Spoto (The Hidden Jesus; A New Life), Hamid Dabashi (Islamic history scholar and Prof. at Columbia University) and Nancy Caciola (Midieval history Prof. at the University of California). I assume these folks were also consultants on the film along with many others. In the end though, it is just a movie and sometimes exact accuracy must be sacrificed to move the plot along. Seems silly to argue though since it is obviously meant as a fictionalized account.

[tom hyle]

Haven't seen the movie; haven't seen the duel, but it sounds like a posture seen with both European and Japanese swordfighting; it wouldn't surprise me if it's seen in between; the sword hand on high, the blade tip facing forward and down with the main cutting edge facing forward and up; a position good for the deadly downward behind the shield thrust into the chest/throat (especially with a curved blade), and from which a cut can be deployed more quickly than from the high-and-back position that guards your sword (as seen in earlier medieval European art, for instance), and also allows/implies the protective use of the blade. The sheild, or lacking one, left arm, deployed for parries, grappling, etc..........On the other hand, it's fairly typical for newer "Hollywood" type movies that the martial arts are flavor of the month of what's on the N American scene, regardless of relevance to the historical milieu depicted; thus we've had the 3 musketeers using rapiers as if they were daito, and the opposite ridiculousness in old historical dramas with the sheild held to the rear, and sword in front; MacBeth using his spatha like a smallsword......sounds like this movie promulgates the ignorant popular idea of curved Islamic swords, and the glimpses of the commercials I've had may bear that out? Nice to hear it's not an antiMuslim hatefest, though.

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by M.carter

Is that some sort of arabian swordsmanship?!

Sorry for interrupting, but I always thought that Salahadin's army was as unarabic as possible. Kurd commanding kipchaqs, circassians and some turks (after purging the army of africans).

It was also my understanding that the responsibility for training lied mostly on kipchaqs.

[M.carter]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Sorry for interrupting, but I always thought that Salahadin's army was as unarabic as possible. Kurd commanding kipchaqs, circassians and some turks (after purging the army of africans).

It was also my understanding that the responsibility for training lied mostly on kipchaqs.

Nope, the Ayyubid family was kurdish, but the ayyubid armies were mainly Syrian and egyptian garrisons, no kipchaqs. The Kipchaqs and circassians came much later, during the mamluk period.

[tom hyle]

Who has commentary to distinguish Kurdish weaponry from Arab at the time? (I have no idea; heck, I don't know anything constructive about modern Kurdish edged weapons )
Even if Rivkin is incorrect about the more Northern peoples, it's certainly possible the curved swords are ethnically correct for some portion of the army, nor would it surprise me if there were some sabre type swords all along, as there more or less were in Europe, but if they are depicted as the dominant type, that seems incorrect to me. What of jambiya and its curvature? Some old swords we've discussed recently have rather jamiyesque handles, but straight blades..........How old is the (Eastern?) Afrasian simply curved two-edged dagger/sword? I don't seem to recall it from "classical antiquity?" (among Afrasians around the Mediterranean, though curved double-edgers are occasionally seen out of BCE Europe, and mainly I don't know what with nonmediterranean Afrasians; the more southern protoBerbers; Africa remains a dark continent in the same sense as the premedieval period was Europe's dark age; it has been hidden from us....archaeology has been making inroads in both.....)........random thoughts; seeem relevant somehow.....

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by M.carter

Nope, the Ayyubid family was kurdish, but the ayyubid armies were mainly Syrian and egyptian garrisons, no kipchaqs. The Kipchaqs and circassians came much later, during the mamluk period.

First of all I apologize if my statements are going to be incorrect, and I truly hope to be corrected.

My understanding was that Saladin died in 1193, and by 1250-1260 Ayyubids were mostly outed by rebelling mameluks (which does not seem to be much later than Salahadin's reign) - who formed the next dynasty, Bahri (which was a kipchaq dynasty). During the reign of Saladin he, and his commanders were very often of kurdish origin, but the army was already predominantly mamluk, the practise which started basically in 10th century with black mamluks (Nubians etc.). I think 1169, the battle of Cairo is considered the foundation of mameluks as a cast - the black mameluks were slaughtered by the order of Salahadin, and replaced by "white" mameluks - Kipchaqs from northern Caucasus and surrounding steppes, Circassians and other northern tribes. Since then, "blacks" were barred from being mameluks.

[Brucetroy]

Originally Posted by nechesh

OK, i HIGHLY recommend you all go see the new Ridley Scott film "Kingdom of Heaven". The repros in it are absolutely amazing, especially some of the Muslim armor. Beautiful swords, great battle scenes, but ultimately a film more about peace than war. The acting is great, the cinematography sumptuous and Oscar-worthy. Actually worth the $8.50 and a must-see on the big screen.

I agree .I loved Kingdom of heaven.
How acurate was it historically and what years did the events supposedly cover ?
Thanks for a reply .
Cheers
Bruce

[nechesh]

Hi Brucetroy. You probably responded to my post before moving on through the thread, but i think you will find the answers to you questions in the discussion that followed.

[Spunjer]

add to the list, Bang-Rajan, an epic thai movie depicting the legendary villge of bang-rajan during the siam burmese war... lots and lots of sword fights and dhas...

[nechesh]

Funny you should pull this thread back up Spunjer because i was about to do it myself.
I will admit to knowing little to nothing about Chinese weapons so i cannot attest to the accuracy of what is depicted, but i just watched House of Flying Daggers from the same folks who brought us Hero and it is just fantastic. Beautiful, poetic and tragic with a whole lotta cold steel.

[Spunjer]

nechesh,

hero's a classic! haven't seen house of flying dagger yet, tho...

[MABAGANI]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

add to the list, Bang-Rajan, an epic thai movie depicting the legendary villge of bang-rajan during the siam burmese war... lots and lots of sword fights and dhas...

Good film, questions for dha collectors, did it look like the blades were intentionally made over sized for screen effect? are they often found in matching pairs? ever try to test throw them like javelin, as seen in the movie?

[MABAGANI]

on the dvd of the movie "kingdom of heaven" there is a version you can watch with historical references...
interesting info on muslim and crusader swordsmiths about thrusting the heated blade through flesh or animal skins and then cold water...

[tom hyle]

Cemetery man; a light hearted zombie romp from France or Itally (I don't remember which). Most super-bad-ass shovels ever. They make the thing Tuco was considering eviscerating blondie with in The Good The Bad and The Ugly look like a garden trowel.

[josh stout]

I love the swords in Ashok a Bollywood (Mumballywood ) movie with many extras who seem to have brought their own swords. The only really bad one is the one held by Ashok himself.
Josh