Spanish sword

Victrix · 23rd January 2024, 07:54 PM

Yes probably more decorative. As stated in the first post, the sword was purchased from Italy so Naples (Spanish at the time) might be a reasonable assumption. At least two of the swords from the castle in Segovia have similar decorations on the shell. So does the sword below.

Jim McDougall · 24th January 2024, 01:51 PM

It seems that vestigial presence of certain elements on sword hilts is commonly found especially in transitional situations as forms evolved. Case in point of course are the distinct pas d'ane (a notably disputed term) rings in the familiar small sword hilts later in the 18th century. By this time their use had become more 'decorative' and their common everyday wear had all but waned, and their use not as likely. Thus the familiar 'rings devolved from their pragmatic purpose.

There seems to have of course been notable cross diffusion of sword forms and elements between Spain and Italy, of course given the provincial status of these regions in Italy as Victrix notes, It is of course well known that remarkable numbers of the 'Spanish' cup hilt were actually with Italian made hilts.
With all the traffic of arms, influences and elements of the weapons back and forth it does not seem unusual that an example of the notably Spanish form ubiquitous there and in Spanish colonies would turn up indeed in North Italy, just as Fernando has suggested.

It seems to me that this sword, clearly of the 'bilbo' (familiarly 'boca de caballo') generic, might will have been produced in Italy using either a Spanish blade, or as commonly the case one using spurious markings. There are cases, though not as common, of Spanish blades occurring in Italian contexts.

While the rompepuntas on this sword is clearly a decorative embellishment which is virtually never present on most Spanish 'bilbo' type swords, perhaps this example was fashioned with the notable feature from the long favored cup hilt with that traditional recognition. The cup hilt is of course known to have remained in favor as THE chosen Spanish sword long after other lighter forms (small swords) were becoming popular.

While I would typically think of the cup hilt as a fencing/dueling choice and the 'bilbo' as more of an arming sword more for typical combat, it seems I have heard from some well versed in fencing note that sometimes these bilbos are often well balanced and light enough to effectively carry out the scheduled moves prescribed in some degree. Clearly this would not likely be 'textbook' application, but a swordsman recalling the tenets of 'destreza' would inherently use a sword accordingly. If nothing else, the 'rompepuntas' on these examples of bilbo may be no more than a wistful nod to the beloved Spanish cuphilt. The examples shown by Victrix indicate this is hardly a 'one off' case.

Possibly this might have some tenuous connection in explaining the unusual character of this example?

Victrix · 24th January 2024, 07:07 PM

The blade looks very German, so I suspect a Solingen made one with a questionable Juan Martinez cartouche mark on the ricasso. From what I understand the bigger the shell guard and pommel, the older the sword. Although I cannot rule out that this could just signs of provincial origins. I also note that my sword arguably looks like a pure thoroughbred compared to many of the swords hanging in the picture from Segovia castle.

fernando · 24th January 2024, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

... I also note that my sword arguably looks like a pure thoroughbred compared to many of the swords hanging in the picture from Segovia castle.

...

Still i see no reason for yours not to look so good as those; no matter their thoroughbred

.

... And by the way, the Alcazar of Segovia is one in Spain i have never visited. This is a postcard sent by my daughter in 1999.

-

Victrix · 25th January 2024, 08:34 PM

Wow that looks like my kind of place!

The helmets on the left look quite interesting. Almost like those Roman gladiator helmets. So many places to see… I hope to finally make it to Graz to see the armoury there soon in the next few months. Fingers crossed.

23rd January 2024, 07:54 PM	#1
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Yes probably more decorative. As stated in the first post, the sword was purchased from Italy so Naples (Spanish at the time) might be a reasonable assumption. At least two of the swords from the castle in Segovia have similar decorations on the shell. So does the sword below. Attached Images

24th January 2024, 01:51 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	It seems that vestigial presence of certain elements on sword hilts is commonly found especially in transitional situations as forms evolved. Case in point of course are the distinct pas d'ane (a notably disputed term) rings in the familiar small sword hilts later in the 18th century. By this time their use had become more 'decorative' and their common everyday wear had all but waned, and their use not as likely. Thus the familiar 'rings devolved from their pragmatic purpose. There seems to have of course been notable cross diffusion of sword forms and elements between Spain and Italy, of course given the provincial status of these regions in Italy as Victrix notes, It is of course well known that remarkable numbers of the 'Spanish' cup hilt were actually with Italian made hilts. With all the traffic of arms, influences and elements of the weapons back and forth it does not seem unusual that an example of the notably Spanish form ubiquitous there and in Spanish colonies would turn up indeed in North Italy, just as Fernando has suggested. It seems to me that this sword, clearly of the 'bilbo' (familiarly 'boca de caballo') generic, might will have been produced in Italy using either a Spanish blade, or as commonly the case one using spurious markings. There are cases, though not as common, of Spanish blades occurring in Italian contexts. While the rompepuntas on this sword is clearly a decorative embellishment which is virtually never present on most Spanish 'bilbo' type swords, perhaps this example was fashioned with the notable feature from the long favored cup hilt with that traditional recognition. The cup hilt is of course known to have remained in favor as THE chosen Spanish sword long after other lighter forms (small swords) were becoming popular. While I would typically think of the cup hilt as a fencing/dueling choice and the 'bilbo' as more of an arming sword more for typical combat, it seems I have heard from some well versed in fencing note that sometimes these bilbos are often well balanced and light enough to effectively carry out the scheduled moves prescribed in some degree. Clearly this would not likely be 'textbook' application, but a swordsman recalling the tenets of 'destreza' would inherently use a sword accordingly. If nothing else, the 'rompepuntas' on these examples of bilbo may be no more than a wistful nod to the beloved Spanish cuphilt. The examples shown by Victrix indicate this is hardly a 'one off' case. Possibly this might have some tenuous connection in explaining the unusual character of this example?

24th January 2024, 07:07 PM	#3
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	The blade looks very German, so I suspect a Solingen made one with a questionable Juan Martinez cartouche mark on the ricasso. From what I understand the bigger the shell guard and pommel, the older the sword. Although I cannot rule out that this could just signs of provincial origins. I also note that my sword arguably looks like a pure thoroughbred compared to many of the swords hanging in the picture from Segovia castle.

25th January 2024, 08:34 PM	#5
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Wow that looks like my kind of place! The helmets on the left look quite interesting. Almost like those Roman gladiator helmets. So many places to see… I hope to finally make it to Graz to see the armoury there soon in the next few months. Fingers crossed.