European sword PL with Islamic? markings to guard

Jim McDougall · 15th January 2024, 06:17 AM

Was it something I said?

Radboud · 24th January 2024, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Was it something I said?

No, you pretty much summed up the sword well.

Only thing I will add is that the Crown over PL is likely an inspectors stamp. The auction catalogue for the Dutch Army museum sale lists such an inspectors stamp (but doesn’t show an example) so it is quite likely to be a central rather then regional mark.

Jim McDougall · 24th January 2024, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radboud

No, you pretty much summed up the sword well.

Only thing I will add is that the Crown over PL is likely an inspectors stamp. The auction catalogue for the Dutch Army museum sale lists such an inspectors stamp (but doesn’t show an example) so it is quite likely to be a central rather then regional mark.

Thank you so much Radboud! and I appreciate your confirmation on the marking as well as always for your sincere courtesy in responding to my post. I thought my analysis after finding what I thought would be helpful after some time researching would at least perpetuate other examples or some sort of onward discussion. If Phil is still around.....I was hoping I had not framed my wording in some manner that would have been unintentionally offensive. Things seem to get pretty touchy these days.
Very best regards,
Jim

Radboud · 24th January 2024, 07:53 PM

While I haven't built a catalogue of images, these briquets (with Dutch origins but found in Indoneasia) do show up on Facebook sword groups from time to time. Usually they have been worked very hard and are fairly worn out.

In the context of things, this is not really surprising. Indoneasia, at least until recently, being a largely agricultural society must have found these briquets very handy tools to have around.

As for the sword Phil's friend has aquired, looking closer at the blade, I suspect that it originally came from a Dutch m1820 infantry officers sword, which was an identical copy of the British 1796 Pattern infantry officers sword.

I personally doubt the replacement was done 'in period', but it would have happened during the 'working life' of the sword. Most likely the briquet blade had become so worn from re-sharpening that to get the remaining utility out of the handle someone matched it with a broken officers blade.

Even with the shortened blade, the sword shown would still make a perfectly adequate slasher.

Jim McDougall · 25th January 2024, 04:17 AM

Thank you again Radboud!
It seems the 'briquet' was one of the most ubiquitous patterns of simple other ranks hanger with its fully cast brass ribbed grip hilt in Europe, with most countries apparently having their production virtually all the same.

While these seem to have been used everywhere, and over long period from end of 18th well through the 19th c.

In my earliest days of collecting, I had Claude Blair's "European and American Arms" (1962) as one of my first arms books. I found one of these at a swap meet, and to my naive eyes it looked like a pirate cutlass! Then browsing through the late Mr. Blairs book, he had a drawing of one of these and captioned as a British 'foot artillery gunners sword'.

It was not until decades later that I discovered there was no such pattern, but these direct copies of the French briquet were apparently privately produced in small numbers. These seem to have been furnished to private units that were in effect 'home guard' paramilitary type groups.

While certainly most of what must have been staggering numbers of these simple weapons must have been produced, relatively few seem to ever turn up. Most were likely instant smelter fodder for the brass, but occasionally these turn up in odd circumstances.
Such as this Spanish colonial anomaly, which is composite with a briquet hilt, three bar cavalry guard and cut down Spanish dragoon blade in an ersatz effort to create an 'espada ancha' presumably.

As Phil had noted, apparently the sword in original post has similar (but less dramatic) circumstances.

werecow · 26th January 2024, 12:18 AM

What is the length of the blade Phil? It seems somewhat short for a spadroon blade (also the fuller looks wider than the ones on the m1820s I've seen - but I've only seen a few).

EDIT: Pictures for comparison. Not entirely sure if this one is Dutch, though.

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2024, 05:09 PM

In my post #10, I showed the hilt of a briquet hilt, morphed into a composite 'espada ancha' with addition of three bar cavalry hilt and notably shortened Spanish M1728 dragoon blade. In the colonies of New Spain in the rugged frontera of North Mexico, repurposing of everything, weapons included, was of course common.

This seems to compare in kind with this briquet example shown from Bali, using a blade from other sword, shortened for wear or use more in the effect of a hanger.

Attached shows blade of the example I showed in post #10 , clearly a shortened dragoon blade.

25th January 2024, 04:17 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thank you again Radboud! It seems the 'briquet' was one of the most ubiquitous patterns of simple other ranks hanger with its fully cast brass ribbed grip hilt in Europe, with most countries apparently having their production virtually all the same. While these seem to have been used everywhere, and over long period from end of 18th well through the 19th c. In my earliest days of collecting, I had Claude Blair's "European and American Arms" (1962) as one of my first arms books. I found one of these at a swap meet, and to my naive eyes it looked like a pirate cutlass! Then browsing through the late Mr. Blairs book, he had a drawing of one of these and captioned as a British 'foot artillery gunners sword'. It was not until decades later that I discovered there was no such pattern, but these direct copies of the French briquet were apparently privately produced in small numbers. These seem to have been furnished to private units that were in effect 'home guard' paramilitary type groups. While certainly most of what must have been staggering numbers of these simple weapons must have been produced, relatively few seem to ever turn up. Most were likely instant smelter fodder for the brass, but occasionally these turn up in odd circumstances. Such as this Spanish colonial anomaly, which is composite with a briquet hilt, three bar cavalry guard and cut down Spanish dragoon blade in an ersatz effort to create an 'espada ancha' presumably. As Phil had noted, apparently the sword in original post has similar (but less dramatic) circumstances. Attached Images

26th January 2024, 12:18 AM	#6
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 553	What is the length of the blade Phil? It seems somewhat short for a spadroon blade (also the fuller looks wider than the ones on the m1820s I've seen - but I've only seen a few). EDIT: Pictures for comparison. Not entirely sure if this one is Dutch, though. Attached Images

26th January 2024, 05:09 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	In my post #10, I showed the hilt of a briquet hilt, morphed into a composite 'espada ancha' with addition of three bar cavalry hilt and notably shortened Spanish M1728 dragoon blade. In the colonies of New Spain in the rugged frontera of North Mexico, repurposing of everything, weapons included, was of course common. This seems to compare in kind with this briquet example shown from Bali, using a blade from other sword, shortened for wear or use more in the effect of a hanger. Attached shows blade of the example I showed in post #10 , clearly a shortened dragoon blade. Attached Images

15th January 2024, 06:17 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Was it something I said?

24th January 2024, 07:53 PM	#4
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 276	While I haven't built a catalogue of images, these briquets (with Dutch origins but found in Indoneasia) do show up on Facebook sword groups from time to time. Usually they have been worked very hard and are fairly worn out. In the context of things, this is not really surprising. Indoneasia, at least until recently, being a largely agricultural society must have found these briquets very handy tools to have around. As for the sword Phil's friend has aquired, looking closer at the blade, I suspect that it originally came from a Dutch m1820 infantry officers sword, which was an identical copy of the British 1796 Pattern infantry officers sword. I personally doubt the replacement was done 'in period', but it would have happened during the 'working life' of the sword. Most likely the briquet blade had become so worn from re-sharpening that to get the remaining utility out of the handle someone matched it with a broken officers blade. Even with the shortened blade, the sword shown would still make a perfectly adequate slasher.