Another Surakarta Keris

A. G. Maisey · 9th January 2024, 08:27 PM

I have not heard of pamor wengkon isen.

It does not appear in EK, nor in KJ. In fact in KJ, HH calls pamor wengkon "pamor tepen", another term I have not heard used in Solo.

The word "isen" comes from "isi" = "contents", "isen" is normally used as "isen-isen", again meaning "contents", so "wengkon isen" is actually a description, not a name.

HH's name for pamor wengkon, ie, "pamor tepen", I find to be very peculiar, because "tepen" means "a decorative border".

In Solo, I have only ever heard pamor wengkon referred to as "pamor wengkon", and when another pamor is found within the border of the wengkon it would be referred to by its name, in the case of David's fine example, this would be "pamor wengkon and kuta mesir", again, a description, not a name, but a description that names the two component pamor motifs.

Keris terminology varies all over the place, broadly, it is not fixed, and I personally believe a lot of keris terminology these days has been made up to cover lack of knowledge or to satisfy the needs of a person or group.

David · 9th January 2024, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Keris terminology varies all over the place, broadly, it is not fixed, and I personally believe a lot of keris terminology these days has been made up to cover lack of knowledge or to satisfy the needs of a person or group.

Thanks Alan, i am sure quite a lot of names have been made up in the keris world just in the past few years. I had heard the term "wengkon isen" elsewhere before this thread and it does seem to be a fair descriptor for a pamor held within a wengkon pamor. But i am just as pleased to refer to my keris as "wengkon kuta mesir" as well, which would be more specific. I used the term here mostly because JustYS had asked about above.

A. G. Maisey · 10th January 2024, 12:41 AM

David, when I saw it used as a name, & not as a descriptor, I googled it, and I got a lot of hits, so, within the collector community it now apparently in common usage.

My point in commenting at all was just to reiterate what I've been saying for years:- there really is no "standard" terminology, yeah, there can be terms that are overall, pretty generally used, but to say one thing is right & another thing is wrong, is now, & probably always has been not really in synch with the real world.

HH with his "pamor tepen" points this up too. To my mind it is absolutely incorrect, it is not something I've ever heard used for pamor wengkon, & when we consider the Javanese meaning, it is just out & out wrong. But HH was real big in the collector world, so who am I to argue with him? He might have made it up himself, or he might have heard it somewhere or other & liked it.

I reckon we need to stay fairly open minded where keris terminology is concerned.

9th January 2024, 08:27 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	I have not heard of pamor wengkon isen. It does not appear in EK, nor in KJ. In fact in KJ, HH calls pamor wengkon "pamor tepen", another term I have not heard used in Solo. The word "isen" comes from "isi" = "contents", "isen" is normally used as "isen-isen", again meaning "contents", so "wengkon isen" is actually a description, not a name. HH's name for pamor wengkon, ie, "pamor tepen", I find to be very peculiar, because "tepen" means "a decorative border". In Solo, I have only ever heard pamor wengkon referred to as "pamor wengkon", and when another pamor is found within the border of the wengkon it would be referred to by its name, in the case of David's fine example, this would be "pamor wengkon and kuta mesir", again, a description, not a name, but a description that names the two component pamor motifs. Keris terminology varies all over the place, broadly, it is not fixed, and I personally believe a lot of keris terminology these days has been made up to cover lack of knowledge or to satisfy the needs of a person or group.

10th January 2024, 12:41 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	David, when I saw it used as a name, & not as a descriptor, I googled it, and I got a lot of hits, so, within the collector community it now apparently in common usage. My point in commenting at all was just to reiterate what I've been saying for years:- there really is no "standard" terminology, yeah, there can be terms that are overall, pretty generally used, but to say one thing is right & another thing is wrong, is now, & probably always has been not really in synch with the real world. HH with his "pamor tepen" points this up too. To my mind it is absolutely incorrect, it is not something I've ever heard used for pamor wengkon, & when we consider the Javanese meaning, it is just out & out wrong. But HH was real big in the collector world, so who am I to argue with him? He might have made it up himself, or he might have heard it somewhere or other & liked it. I reckon we need to stay fairly open minded where keris terminology is concerned.