Pedang.....Mataram blade?

David · 4th January 2024, 02:52 PM

Jim, i'm moving this to the correct forum.

A. G. Maisey · 4th January 2024, 07:27 PM

Jim, there are two distinct periods that are named as Mataram. The first was the Early Classical period in Central Jawa, pre-dating the move of power to East Jawa. The second period of Mataram began towards the end of the 16th century when Senopati assumed power from the Kingdom of Pajang, & set up his kraton in the area of Kota Gede, near present day Ngayogyakarta, in Central Jawa. Kota Gede was the location of the original Kingdom of Mataram, Early Classical Period.

Some will place the end of this second period of Mataram at the point where the Dutch began colonisation of Jawa, say, early 1700's, others will maintain that Mataram is still valid today, because the present Sultan of Ngayogyakarta (Jogja) is of the House of Mataram, as is the present Susuhunan of Surakarta.

Then there are those who want Mataram to end at the time of the partition of Jawa, & others who want it to end when British troops sacked the Kraton of Ngayogyakarta & held a blood bath --- the British troops were Indians under British officers and until today many Javanese people living in Central Jawa are particularly wary of anybody who is ethnic Indian.

I think this pedang might have come from me some years ago, I have forgotten it, but I recognise the style of the recent dress, from the photos I believe I would probably place this pedang blade as pre-1800, ie, late Mataram. My opinion might change if I had it in hand.

My current interpretation of the pommel is that it is a stylization of the Spirit of the Bengawan Solo (Solo River), the Rojomolo (Rajamala).

Jim McDougall · 4th January 2024, 08:17 PM

David thank you, my apology for incorrect placement.

Alan thank you so much! Indeed this is from you quite a number of years ago, your memory is amazing. I truly appreciate your detailed description and explanations on this, I have misplaced my notes (getting worse as the years creep up on me

.

It really is a magnificent blade, which I can appreciate even with the limited knowledge I have on these, pretty well reflects the high standards of the weapons you handle.

Very best regards,
Jim

A. G. Maisey · 4th January 2024, 09:19 PM

Jim, I do appreciate your compliment, but in all honesty I must tell you that my memory sucks. Big time. I have difficulty remembering what I had for lunch yesterday. Ask me how much money I have in my pocket --- no idea at all.

My memory has never been that great, & it has only gotten worse as I have become older. My brother has a good memory, he used to be able to remember page numbers and paragraph placements & content of things he had read maybe years before. My memory functions like a library alpha-numeric system, it tells me where to find the info I need. Like an index.

But memory is not much involved in what I've written about your pedang, the scabbard work & design is something I can ID without difficulty, & the blade type is not something rare & unusual.

No memory, just familiarity with the field.

Interested Party · 4th January 2024, 11:40 PM

It is a random pattern, correct? Is this one that has changed significantly with repeated cleanings?

Jim McDougall · 5th January 2024, 04:51 AM

Alan.......the volume of what you may have forgotten is more than most will ever know! I've known you too long to think otherwise

I.P... excellent questions. On an old blade such as this apparently is, it would seem that the oiling treatments and reactions might alter somewhat the patterns or pamor inherent in it. As I have understood, while the pamor is of course 'random' in notable degree, it is the character of these various recognized pamors that correspond to the traditional beliefs in this culture.

I find these definitions of the character of each fascinating, and would like to know which of the pamor groups and significance might apply here.

Peter Andeweg · 5th January 2024, 10:52 AM

Hello!

I believe the 'pedang' is Sumatran, traditionally washed and traditionally forged blade. I don't think there was a specific type of pamor constructed, but just made in the traditional way. Some symbols are forged into pedang blades such as 'Batu lapak', but it seems mostly a tradition of forging and strengthening the blade. Similar blades with a small fuller on the forte are often dated around the 18th century. This blade could be genuinely 18th century in my opinion.

The hilt seems a stylistic version of a 'makara', also often seen on Sumatran swords. Mostly varying in different motifs.

4th January 2024, 02:52 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	Jim, i'm moving this to the correct forum.

4th January 2024, 07:27 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,059	Jim, there are two distinct periods that are named as Mataram. The first was the Early Classical period in Central Jawa, pre-dating the move of power to East Jawa. The second period of Mataram began towards the end of the 16th century when Senopati assumed power from the Kingdom of Pajang, & set up his kraton in the area of Kota Gede, near present day Ngayogyakarta, in Central Jawa. Kota Gede was the location of the original Kingdom of Mataram, Early Classical Period. Some will place the end of this second period of Mataram at the point where the Dutch began colonisation of Jawa, say, early 1700's, others will maintain that Mataram is still valid today, because the present Sultan of Ngayogyakarta (Jogja) is of the House of Mataram, as is the present Susuhunan of Surakarta. Then there are those who want Mataram to end at the time of the partition of Jawa, & others who want it to end when British troops sacked the Kraton of Ngayogyakarta & held a blood bath --- the British troops were Indians under British officers and until today many Javanese people living in Central Jawa are particularly wary of anybody who is ethnic Indian. I think this pedang might have come from me some years ago, I have forgotten it, but I recognise the style of the recent dress, from the photos I believe I would probably place this pedang blade as pre-1800, ie, late Mataram. My opinion might change if I had it in hand. My current interpretation of the pommel is that it is a stylization of the Spirit of the Bengawan Solo (Solo River), the Rojomolo (Rajamala).

4th January 2024, 08:17 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,595	David thank you, my apology for incorrect placement. Alan thank you so much! Indeed this is from you quite a number of years ago, your memory is amazing. I truly appreciate your detailed description and explanations on this, I have misplaced my notes (getting worse as the years creep up on me . It really is a magnificent blade, which I can appreciate even with the limited knowledge I have on these, pretty well reflects the high standards of the weapons you handle. Very best regards, Jim

4th January 2024, 09:19 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,059	Jim, I do appreciate your compliment, but in all honesty I must tell you that my memory sucks. Big time. I have difficulty remembering what I had for lunch yesterday. Ask me how much money I have in my pocket --- no idea at all. My memory has never been that great, & it has only gotten worse as I have become older. My brother has a good memory, he used to be able to remember page numbers and paragraph placements & content of things he had read maybe years before. My memory functions like a library alpha-numeric system, it tells me where to find the info I need. Like an index. But memory is not much involved in what I've written about your pedang, the scabbard work & design is something I can ID without difficulty, & the blade type is not something rare & unusual. No memory, just familiarity with the field.

4th January 2024, 11:40 PM	#5
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 510	It is a random pattern, correct? Is this one that has changed significantly with repeated cleanings?

5th January 2024, 04:51 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,595	Alan.......the volume of what you may have forgotten is more than most will ever know! I've known you too long to think otherwise I.P... excellent questions. On an old blade such as this apparently is, it would seem that the oiling treatments and reactions might alter somewhat the patterns or pamor inherent in it. As I have understood, while the pamor is of course 'random' in notable degree, it is the character of these various recognized pamors that correspond to the traditional beliefs in this culture. I find these definitions of the character of each fascinating, and would like to know which of the pamor groups and significance might apply here.

5th January 2024, 10:52 AM	#7
Peter Andeweg Member Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Vlissingen, Netherlands Posts: 71	Hello! I believe the 'pedang' is Sumatran, traditionally washed and traditionally forged blade. I don't think there was a specific type of pamor constructed, but just made in the traditional way. Some symbols are forged into pedang blades such as 'Batu lapak', but it seems mostly a tradition of forging and strengthening the blade. Similar blades with a small fuller on the forte are often dated around the 18th century. This blade could be genuinely 18th century in my opinion. The hilt seems a stylistic version of a 'makara', also often seen on Sumatran swords. Mostly varying in different motifs.