Bali keris holder use

David · 5th December 2023, 01:56 PM

Hi Sid. This is indeed a very good question and a good subject for discussion. Unfortunately i cannot personally answer these questions. He is a link to a thread we had a while back showing some examples. Within that thread there is another link to a thread started by a person came to our forum because they were doing a research paper on these. I don't think they ever got back to us on their project or presented any final results.
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...i+keris+holder

SidJ · 7th December 2023, 11:00 PM

Thanks David
Strange no one seems to have any informed thoughts on this.
Best
Sid

Rick · 8th December 2023, 03:37 AM

I cannot imagine anyone, no matter the culture having a Keris stand or other family heirloom, kept outside of their house where it would be accessible to any stranger who happened by.
Maybe this is a Western view of the practice, I don't know, but it seems that an object of power and familial reverence would not be left in an insecure place.
Could it be that the Keris holder would be for the use of Visitors and not for the Host?

(He shrugs)

Bob A · 8th December 2023, 07:45 AM

I believe the original series of questions to be so broad, while demonstrating an equally wide lack of information regarding the culture in question, that an effective answer might require volumes, and an equal measure of time and study.

It might seem at least slightly offensive to a person steeped in the keris culture to be confronted with a series of uncomprehending guesses; politeness would dictate an answer based on the expectation of the questioner, but the gap between the two seems quite wide, making that answer difficult to formulate.

Then too, sometimes silence is an answer, of sorts.

All very enigmatic.

Bob A · 8th December 2023, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SidJ

Stop being so tediously pompous and condescending for Gods sake. What an odious response. It was a simple question drafted in plain english. Get over yourself.

Thanks for the advice.

A. G. Maisey · 8th December 2023, 10:59 PM

Your questions are well put Sid, but the problem is that over the last 100 years or so Balinese society & its mores have changed more than a little. If you can get hold of a copy of this book:-

https://brill.com/display/title/32970

it will open your eyes to what Bali was, compared to what it has now become.

The difference is enormous.

After the puputans a lot of the old cultural beliefs were explained away, and in a very short space of time, tourists and European artists influenced the societal style of Bali to a point where not only were many of the old ways abandoned, but they were forgotten too. Forgotten to the point where even the Gods & folk characters lost their identities.

Then we had Merdeka, and in order for the Balinese religion to be included as a recognised system of belief in the New Indonesia, it was forced to become monotheistic --- at least in its official form.

I have read somewhere or other that the totogan keris holders were used for guests to place their keris into, when they entered a house. I used to know of a house in the Ubud hinterland where the owner kept his family keris holders on the front verandah of his house. Last time I passed this house, those keris holders were gone.

I doubt that the idea of being impolite would have existed in Bali at the time when visitors were expected to remove a keris before entering a host's house. The Balinese character would see this as an insult, and in past times the way to remove insult was with blood. I tend to believe that entering to a house whilst bearing a keris would be tantamount to a challenge --- if indeed it was socially unacceptable to enter a house whilst wearing a keris.

As for some published source on the function of keris holders, I know of none, but there is ample material available that deals with Balinese society & religion, if one is prepared to devote time to a study of this published material, a good foundation for formulation of relevant hypotheticals can be constructed.

It is pretty much the same old story:- we do not learn the keris by studying the keris, we learn the keris by studying the society from which it comes.

SidJ · 9th December 2023, 01:07 AM

Thank you Alan,
I am grateful indeed for your thoughts. For clarity my query related to the time before the Puputans when old Balinese culture was strong. Now we live in a largely homogenous world where one worldview sadly dominates. I am sure many will find your post insightful. Thanks again.

5th December 2023, 01:56 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,209	Hi Sid. This is indeed a very good question and a good subject for discussion. Unfortunately i cannot personally answer these questions. He is a link to a thread we had a while back showing some examples. Within that thread there is another link to a thread started by a person came to our forum because they were doing a research paper on these. I don't think they ever got back to us on their project or presented any final results. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...i+keris+holder

7th December 2023, 11:00 PM	#2
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 207	Thanks David Strange no one seems to have any informed thoughts on this. Best Sid

8th December 2023, 03:37 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I cannot imagine anyone, no matter the culture having a Keris stand or other family heirloom, kept outside of their house where it would be accessible to any stranger who happened by. Maybe this is a Western view of the practice, I don't know, but it seems that an object of power and familial reverence would not be left in an insecure place. Could it be that the Keris holder would be for the use of Visitors and not for the Host? (He shrugs)

8th December 2023, 07:45 AM	#4
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 435	I believe the original series of questions to be so broad, while demonstrating an equally wide lack of information regarding the culture in question, that an effective answer might require volumes, and an equal measure of time and study. It might seem at least slightly offensive to a person steeped in the keris culture to be confronted with a series of uncomprehending guesses; politeness would dictate an answer based on the expectation of the questioner, but the gap between the two seems quite wide, making that answer difficult to formulate. Then too, sometimes silence is an answer, of sorts. All very enigmatic.

8th December 2023, 10:59 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Your questions are well put Sid, but the problem is that over the last 100 years or so Balinese society & its mores have changed more than a little. If you can get hold of a copy of this book:- https://brill.com/display/title/32970 it will open your eyes to what Bali was, compared to what it has now become. The difference is enormous. After the puputans a lot of the old cultural beliefs were explained away, and in a very short space of time, tourists and European artists influenced the societal style of Bali to a point where not only were many of the old ways abandoned, but they were forgotten too. Forgotten to the point where even the Gods & folk characters lost their identities. Then we had Merdeka, and in order for the Balinese religion to be included as a recognised system of belief in the New Indonesia, it was forced to become monotheistic --- at least in its official form. I have read somewhere or other that the totogan keris holders were used for guests to place their keris into, when they entered a house. I used to know of a house in the Ubud hinterland where the owner kept his family keris holders on the front verandah of his house. Last time I passed this house, those keris holders were gone. I doubt that the idea of being impolite would have existed in Bali at the time when visitors were expected to remove a keris before entering a host's house. The Balinese character would see this as an insult, and in past times the way to remove insult was with blood. I tend to believe that entering to a house whilst bearing a keris would be tantamount to a challenge --- if indeed it was socially unacceptable to enter a house whilst wearing a keris. As for some published source on the function of keris holders, I know of none, but there is ample material available that deals with Balinese society & religion, if one is prepared to devote time to a study of this published material, a good foundation for formulation of relevant hypotheticals can be constructed. It is pretty much the same old story:- we do not learn the keris by studying the keris, we learn the keris by studying the society from which it comes.

9th December 2023, 01:07 AM	#7
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 207	Thank you Alan, I am grateful indeed for your thoughts. For clarity my query related to the time before the Puputans when old Balinese culture was strong. Now we live in a largely homogenous world where one worldview sadly dominates. I am sure many will find your post insightful. Thanks again.