Identification Assistance Requested - New Collector

A. G. Maisey · 28th November 2023, 01:29 AM

Yes Gustav, that Singa does look a bit less worn than other parts of the keris, but when we understand the how, when, where & why of various symbols to a Balinese keris blade, this is not really something of great importance.

The only way I can form a definite opinion on whether a symbol such as this Singa is a addition to a blade is by examination of the blade under magnification.

Gustav · 28th November 2023, 09:47 AM

Alan, a bit less worn in this case is an euphemism.

A. G. Maisey · 28th November 2023, 10:52 AM

I do try to be gentle Gustav, especially when I'm looking at an image on a computer monitor. The photo that we're trying to see things in is simply not good enough to show the grain of the metal, to see that we need good light & something like about a 5X jeweler's loupe.

But then, even if we did find that the singa was indeed a later addition, we still would not know why it was an addition, & that is really the crux of the matter.

mariec · 28th November 2023, 02:47 PM

Thank you everyone! I popped in this morning to check the responses and was very surprised to see so many comments. I will clean up and post more photos for sure! Thanks again!

David · 28th November 2023, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I do try to be gentle Gustav, especially when I'm looking at an image on a computer monitor. The photo that we're trying to see things in is simply not good enough to show the grain of the metal, to see that we need good light & something like about a 5X jeweler's loupe.

But then, even if we did find that the singa was indeed a later addition, we still would not know why it was an addition, & that is really the crux of the matter.

i fully agree with Alan. While i do understand your point Gustav, i must say that even with close examination with the blow-up you provided i do not see any clear indiction that this singo was added at a later date, though i do fully embrace the possibility. Though as Alan states, there are many cultural circumstances where adding such an element to a blade at a later date is completely legitimate within the context of cultural norms. While that may be something we would be unable to determine without clear provenance, we certainly cannot discount it. If indeed this singo was added at a later date it was certainly done with great expertise. So would that make this a lesser keris in your opinion? really depends upon the history of the blade and the circumstances under which it might have been done, if indeed it was. Personally i am still willing to accept this as a desirable collection.

Gustav · 28th November 2023, 04:27 PM

What is left of Greneng?
What is left of RonDha Nunut?
How is the condition of Singo compared to Greneng elements?
What do the results of this comparison tell us?
Is Singo adequately carved?
How are the proportions of Singo - is it iconographically correct for Bali?

At the moment I think we see an old blade here. It is possible this old blade originally had a figural Gandhik. It is even possible, that parts of the original carving are integrated in the figure we see now.

But the details of execution, the proportions of the figure, the lack of metal grain on figures thigh don't led me to think the figure, as it is now, is in the original state.

Let's see what additional images will tell us.

A. G. Maisey · 28th November 2023, 07:22 PM

Insofar as style & execution of this winged lion goes, there can be no doubt that it is Balinese work.

It could have been added to this blade some time after the blade was originally forged, or it could have been added during the forging process. One of the ways in which a figure is added to a blade is to thicken the area of blumbangan & gandhik when the rest of the blade had been forged, but the carving is not yet complete.

I have had several blades, both Balinese & Javanese where this appeared to have been done. When the blade has been thickened during the initial forging there is a discontinuity of metal grain, just as is the case when the carving has been added perhaps 100 years after the initial forge process. In fact, adding material to an old blade is a very, very difficult weld to make.

So even discontinuity of metal grain does not tell the whole story, and where age & continual cleaning in the Balinese way has resulted in a polished surface, rather than a textured surface it becomes even more difficult to form an opinion on whether a figure has been added or not.

We must bear in mind, that in Bali, blades are cleaned by polishing with powdered limestone, they are not acid cleaned as is the case in Jawa, this polishing of the blade results in raised sections of the blade acquiring a smooth finish, rather than a textured surface.

Even with an old Balinese blade in hand, & under magnification, it is extremely difficult to form a supportable opinion on just when a Balinese blade might have been altered or added to, & carved figures are not the only alteration or addition that can be made.

Gustav · 28th November 2023, 08:17 PM

I understand that this is a tricky one. Thank you, Alan, for your comment!

Regarding execution of the figure, with my limited experience I can say, that old examples I have seen mostly have been vertically elongated. This is the first time I see a wing executed in this way, perhaps I have seen these bat-like ears before, but I don't recall where - quite unusual. The cuts in metal at forelegs and turtle (?) are not smooth at all and look comparatively fresh. The very long hind legs are very unusual for an old Balinese Singo. Actually it doesn't look like a Singo to me at all.

28th November 2023, 09:47 AM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Alan, a bit less worn in this case is an euphemism. Attached Images

28th November 2023, 01:29 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Yes Gustav, that Singa does look a bit less worn than other parts of the keris, but when we understand the how, when, where & why of various symbols to a Balinese keris blade, this is not really something of great importance. The only way I can form a definite opinion on whether a symbol such as this Singa is a addition to a blade is by examination of the blade under magnification.

28th November 2023, 10:52 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	I do try to be gentle Gustav, especially when I'm looking at an image on a computer monitor. The photo that we're trying to see things in is simply not good enough to show the grain of the metal, to see that we need good light & something like about a 5X jeweler's loupe. But then, even if we did find that the singa was indeed a later addition, we still would not know why it was an addition, & that is really the crux of the matter.

28th November 2023, 02:47 PM	#4
mariec Member Join Date: Nov 2023 Posts: 2	Thank you everyone! I popped in this morning to check the responses and was very surprised to see so many comments. I will clean up and post more photos for sure! Thanks again!

28th November 2023, 04:27 PM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	What is left of Greneng? What is left of RonDha Nunut? How is the condition of Singo compared to Greneng elements? What do the results of this comparison tell us? Is Singo adequately carved? How are the proportions of Singo - is it iconographically correct for Bali? At the moment I think we see an old blade here. It is possible this old blade originally had a figural Gandhik. It is even possible, that parts of the original carving are integrated in the figure we see now. But the details of execution, the proportions of the figure, the lack of metal grain on figures thigh don't led me to think the figure, as it is now, is in the original state. Let's see what additional images will tell us.

28th November 2023, 07:22 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Insofar as style & execution of this winged lion goes, there can be no doubt that it is Balinese work. It could have been added to this blade some time after the blade was originally forged, or it could have been added during the forging process. One of the ways in which a figure is added to a blade is to thicken the area of blumbangan & gandhik when the rest of the blade had been forged, but the carving is not yet complete. I have had several blades, both Balinese & Javanese where this appeared to have been done. When the blade has been thickened during the initial forging there is a discontinuity of metal grain, just as is the case when the carving has been added perhaps 100 years after the initial forge process. In fact, adding material to an old blade is a very, very difficult weld to make. So even discontinuity of metal grain does not tell the whole story, and where age & continual cleaning in the Balinese way has resulted in a polished surface, rather than a textured surface it becomes even more difficult to form an opinion on whether a figure has been added or not. We must bear in mind, that in Bali, blades are cleaned by polishing with powdered limestone, they are not acid cleaned as is the case in Jawa, this polishing of the blade results in raised sections of the blade acquiring a smooth finish, rather than a textured surface. Even with an old Balinese blade in hand, & under magnification, it is extremely difficult to form a supportable opinion on just when a Balinese blade might have been altered or added to, & carved figures are not the only alteration or addition that can be made.

28th November 2023, 08:17 PM	#8
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	I understand that this is a tricky one. Thank you, Alan, for your comment! Regarding execution of the figure, with my limited experience I can say, that old examples I have seen mostly have been vertically elongated. This is the first time I see a wing executed in this way, perhaps I have seen these bat-like ears before, but I don't recall where - quite unusual. The cuts in metal at forelegs and turtle (?) are not smooth at all and look comparatively fresh. The very long hind legs are very unusual for an old Balinese Singo. Actually it doesn't look like a Singo to me at all.