Ottoman/Albanian Khanjar scabbard markings

[TVV]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Because this is exactly what happened in most cases. The massive Ottoman army was accompanied by many Turkish swordsmiths when it conquered and occupied Greece and the Balkans. And these Turkish swordsmiths established some production centers in these occupied regions and continued to supply weapons to the Ottoman army stationed there.

It is amazing how the Eastern Roman Empire, the First and Second Bulgarian Empires and the Serbian Empire accomplished what they did over a period of close to a millennium fighting with sticks and stones and a few imported weapons or trophies, since they obviously had no arms and armor craftsmen. Good thing the Ottoman brought blacksmithing to the Constantinople and the Balkans...

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by TVV

It is amazing how the Eastern Roman Empire, the First and Second Bulgarian Empires and the Serbian Empire accomplished what they did over a period of close to a millennium fighting with sticks and stones and a few imported weapons or trophies, since they obviously had no arms and armor craftsmen. Good thing the Ottoman brought blacksmithing to the Constantinople and the Balkans...

Albeit you are trying to be sarcastic, you are mostly right.

The Eastern Roman Empire had its own weapons producing centers that were producing Roman weapons.

The smaller "empires" you mentioned used mostly imported weapons.

None of these "empires" developed any significant weapons producing centers. This is both a cause and an effect of them remaining more like early centralized states than true empires. They are called "empires" because they conquered and brought under a centralized rule more small early medieval proto-states.

If any of the pre-ottoman Balkan states would have had a significant role in the production of weapons, there would have been
1. written or at least iconographic records about it (as there are the early Utrecht and Stuttgart psalters, or later writings about Toledo, Solingen, Passau, etc.);
2. a plethora of archeological finds of pre-ottoman weapons characteristic to these states (like there are for example the "viking swords" attesting the existence of major production centers in the Holy Roman Empire).
There are none!

And we should not confuse a swordsmith workshop that is mostly repairing and furbishing blades produced elsewhere with a production center!
And one blade here, another blade there, won't make for a weapons production tradition either!

[Turkoman.khan]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Albeit you are trying to be sarcastic, you are mostly right.

The Eastern Roman Empire had its own weapons producing centers that were producing Roman weapons.

The smaller "empires" you mentioned used mostly imported weapons.

None of these "empires" developed any significant weapons producing centers. This is both a cause and an effect of them remaining more like early centralized states than true empires. They are called "empires" because they conquered and brought under a centralized rule more small early medieval proto-states.

If any of the pre-ottoman Balkan states would have had a significant role in the production of weapons, there would have been
1. written or at least iconographic records about it (as there are the early Utrecht and Stuttgart psalters, or later writings about Toledo, Solingen, Passau, etc.);
2. a plethora of archeological finds of pre-ottoman weapons characteristic to these states (like there are for example the "viking swords" attesting the existence of major production centers in the Holy Roman Empire).
There are none!

And we should not confuse a swordsmith workshop that is mostly repairing and furbishing blades produced elsewhere with a production center!
And one blade here, another blade there, won't make for a weapons production tradition either!

Bravo, Marius!

[DavidFriedman]

Yes, I do also find it odd that this could be attributed to being Albanian, when all the markings show Turkish provenance. At least to my limited level of knowledge on these types of bladed weapons.

Here are two pics of the blade.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by DavidFriedman

Yes, I do also find it odd that this could be attributed to being Albanian, when all the markings show Turkish provenance. At least to my limited level of knowledge on these types of bladed weapons.

Here are two pics of the blade.

I have two, similar with yours.

They both have wootz blades. This is enough to completely invalidate its "Albanian" attribution as wootz was not produced in Europe at that time (with the exception of some Turkish smiths).

It is quite likely that yours is wootz too so you may want to clean and check the blade for wootz.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I have two, similar with yours.

They both have wootz blades. This is enough to completely invalidate its "Albanian" attribution as wootz was not produced in Europe at that time (with the exception of some Turkish smiths).

It is quite likely that yours is wootz too so you may want to clean and check the blade for wootz.

I was looking at the medial ridge and koftgari thinking the same thing. I can't see the finer motifs and/or inscriptions. Odd thing I did notice that I will have to look at other examples and see if it is a common occurrence is that if you look at the two halves of the koftgari as a whole it looks like the vessel motif.

[kronckew]

I still think it's Kurdish. Kurds occupy a rather large part of eastern Türkiye, as well as in Iran/Iraq.


My Ottoman Kurdish jambiya/khanjar, it's wootz, by the way:

Yours is just a bigger fancier version.