Java dress questions and translation

Gavin Nugent · 5th July 2023, 03:21 AM

Thanks Alan, understood. It is a very strong grip that also prevents wrist locks in this manner of stand offs that you note.

I shall reference the grip I note as the sabre grip.

With reference to a hilt orientation like this keris and held like a sabre, do you feel there is validity to this?

I ask as the bugis tangs are robust, where if a Java blade, they tend to be longer and thinner in more modern periods, and would the Java keris suffer under this sabre method, as they are to my eye designed as the rapier application noted above.

It is all very interesting the art of one on one combat...

I digress but I recall a conversation had with a veteran special services chap many years ago, referencing several methods of holding a single edged knife, the tradition grip with the knife held in the fist upwards, being the easier to defend, the reverse grip which you note as being much harder to defend from and devastating when applied as it both slashes and stabs, but what struck me with immediate horror was his sharing of the person who holds the single edged knife like a table knife with the forefinger extended well over the spine of the blade... a fighters characteristic he referred to as experienced, evil and sadistic, a fighter who wants to toy with his enemy and break them down one cut at a time...

Gavin

A. G. Maisey · 5th July 2023, 03:49 AM

Gavin, since the middle of the 18th century, the keris in Jawa has been much like the small sword was in England & Europe, this from Raffles.

However, even through until today, high quality Jawa keris will have a very robust tang. The needle thin tang that we sometimes see on Jawa keris is usually a product of time & erosion, if we look at the place where the tang emerges from the gonjo, that will give a far better idea of the original thickness of the tang.

As for "playing with opponents", well, the gentleman to whom I referred in my previous post was rather scathing of the idea of fighting or duelling with a knife, he was of the opinion that if you needed to actually fight, it indicated that you had improperly prepared, firstly, no matter how good you might be, you would very likely get cut yourself, secondly, in his opinion, the well planned attack should see the end of any combat before it even started, ideally from behind, a single blow, or as you walk past, again, a single blow.

To that man, getting involved in actual fighting was amateurish & stupid, if you were a professional you did not give the opponent the opportunity to strike you, with knife, or with any other part of his body.

Gavin Nugent · 8th July 2023, 09:17 AM

Thank you Alan, I shall take a more thorough approach to viewing the pesi.

On the other matter.... that sounds a like more like assassination than war... such actions do lead to the later... I get both points though...

Gavin

A. G. Maisey · 8th July 2023, 09:41 AM

I rather doubt that the gentleman to whom I refer was involved in many, if any war-type situations. My landlady at that time told me he had had "special duties". In conversation he never really mentioned any sort of war or battlefield type of activity.

5th July 2023, 03:49 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Gavin, since the middle of the 18th century, the keris in Jawa has been much like the small sword was in England & Europe, this from Raffles. However, even through until today, high quality Jawa keris will have a very robust tang. The needle thin tang that we sometimes see on Jawa keris is usually a product of time & erosion, if we look at the place where the tang emerges from the gonjo, that will give a far better idea of the original thickness of the tang. As for "playing with opponents", well, the gentleman to whom I referred in my previous post was rather scathing of the idea of fighting or duelling with a knife, he was of the opinion that if you needed to actually fight, it indicated that you had improperly prepared, firstly, no matter how good you might be, you would very likely get cut yourself, secondly, in his opinion, the well planned attack should see the end of any combat before it even started, ideally from behind, a single blow, or as you walk past, again, a single blow. To that man, getting involved in actual fighting was amateurish & stupid, if you were a professional you did not give the opponent the opportunity to strike you, with knife, or with any other part of his body. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 5th July 2023 at 04:28 AM.

5th July 2023, 03:21 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks Alan, understood. It is a very strong grip that also prevents wrist locks in this manner of stand offs that you note. I shall reference the grip I note as the sabre grip. With reference to a hilt orientation like this keris and held like a sabre, do you feel there is validity to this? I ask as the bugis tangs are robust, where if a Java blade, they tend to be longer and thinner in more modern periods, and would the Java keris suffer under this sabre method, as they are to my eye designed as the rapier application noted above. It is all very interesting the art of one on one combat... I digress but I recall a conversation had with a veteran special services chap many years ago, referencing several methods of holding a single edged knife, the tradition grip with the knife held in the fist upwards, being the easier to defend, the reverse grip which you note as being much harder to defend from and devastating when applied as it both slashes and stabs, but what struck me with immediate horror was his sharing of the person who holds the single edged knife like a table knife with the forefinger extended well over the spine of the blade... a fighters characteristic he referred to as experienced, evil and sadistic, a fighter who wants to toy with his enemy and break them down one cut at a time... Gavin

8th July 2023, 09:17 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thank you Alan, I shall take a more thorough approach to viewing the pesi. On the other matter.... that sounds a like more like assassination than war... such actions do lead to the later... I get both points though... Gavin

8th July 2023, 09:41 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	I rather doubt that the gentleman to whom I refer was involved in many, if any war-type situations. My landlady at that time told me he had had "special duties". In conversation he never really mentioned any sort of war or battlefield type of activity.