The Knife Amnesty in the UK....the repercussions for edged weapons collectors

[The Double D]

If sheep had fangs and claws, wolves would eat more rabbits.

[Tim Simmons]

Unfortunately society, well a good society has to function as a flock.

This is a reaction mainly to teenage crime, often with only teenage emotion as motive. Some might fully understand what violence is. I bet they do not really understand that if you stick a knife in someone it might kill them. A program of education and realisation would do a lot better than all this, lining sharp things up and blaming them. All that is going to happen is a lot of antique knives will be handed in by old people and destroyed.

[katana]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Unfortunately society, well a good society has to function as a flock.

A program of education and realisation would do a lot better than all this, lining sharp things up and blaming them. All that is going to happen is a lot of antique knives will be handed in by old people and destroyed.

I agree, its a shame, afterall a knife left to its own devices is still a knife. A knife in the hand of man is suddenly a deadly weapon. Education is the key point. As to your comment about antique knives, on the local news they showed a few of those that had been handed in.....I almost cried....these were to end up being cut up and recycled...and yet I can walk down the road and buy a potentially lethal stainless steel bowie knife,for a few quid......doesn't make sense

[Lew]

This is another example of lawmakers creating stupid laws based on hysteria! The criminals will still be carrying knives in order to commit crimes. This is the same lame law that banned switch blades back in the 1950-60s due to Hollywood's portrayal of gangs running around the streets with these knives. I believe the spike in knife related crimes is attributed to crimes committed by youths and not adults.
In the last year more than 20 teenagers have died as a result of knife attacks in the UK - that's almost one teenager every two weeks. Like I said it's the young people who are doing the crimes. Children should not carry knives to school. Adults usually are a little more responsible we hope.

Here the way they want to handle it in the UK.


The plan involves:

A licensing scheme for the sale of non-domestic knives and similar objects
Increasing the minimum purchasing age from 16 to 18
Banning the sale of swords
The Executive wants to ensure police make more use of stop and search powers and Ministers also want police to have the power of arrest on suspicion of carrying knives or offensive weapons
Ministers are also proposing to double the sentence for possessing a knife or offensive weapon from two years to four.


Lew

[Rick]

The sound of a million knees jerking ...

[Mark]

OK, here is the big question: "What is a 'knife?'"

I mean, do people have to empty out their kitchen drawers, here? What about restaurant chefs? Butchers? A knife doesn't have to have a serrated edge or a cross-guard in order to be deadly. Heck, it doesn't even have to be a knife - any sharpened bit of metal or hard plastic will work as well on soft tissue (just ask your average prison inmate).

It really is pretty absurd. Unfortunately, its an actual law as well. I would probably have been better to outlaw the carrying of knives under most circumstance, rather than to outlaw knives.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

It really is pretty absurd. Unfortunately, its an actual law as well. It would probably have been better to outlaw the carrying of knives under most circumstance, rather than to outlaw knives.

A concealed weapon law would have made more sense, but personally I would have disagreed with that approach too. Why should people not be allowed to carry a good all purpose knife in their pocket, like any other tool? Yes, a tool might be a weapon, but a tool is primarily a tool. Are we going to outlaw a screwdriver or chisel because they could be used to stab somebody? Maybe in a prison setting that would be a good idea. Otherwise it sounds pretty stupid.

This is straying into politics, and the forum discourages such comments. So I'll shut up. Enough venting.

Ian.

[Henk]

I'm really concerned about these stupid laws, made by nitwits. In Holland those idiot delevery weeks where also used to collect knives from youngsters. I know because i have some policemen among my friends that even brave citicens brought in the most beautiful swords, knives and keris for destruction. And now i'm talking about museum pieces!!!!

[nechesh]

Quote from Katana"s firt post:
"If you carry a knife out of self-defence, you run the risk of having it turned on you. Carrying a knife is illegal and will not be tolerated. It could land you four years in prison"

Am i missing something? Does this law go further than this? It seems to be about CARRYING edged weapons, not owning them. Does this law also ban owning such weapons in ones home? If so i have a problem with it. If it is just about carrying such weapons i don't see a problem....except, of course, that criminals will continue to carry regardless. But i don't necessarily see it as a threat to the collector world.

[VANDOO]

THE ATHORITIES WHO ONLY COLLECT MONEY AND HAVE BODYGARDS WITH LOTS OF GUNS ARE JUST TRYING TO PROTECT THE IGONORANT LOWER CLASSES. WHAT A LOAD OF S. THE REASON THERE IS A PROVISION IN THE U.S. CONSTITUTION FOR BEARING ARMS IS TO KEEP THESE TYPES OF PEOPLE FROM GETTING ABSOLUTE POWER OVER THE PEOPLE. IF THEY DO GET SUCH CONTROL HISTORY IN MANY COUNTRYS HAS SHOWN OVER AND OVER THAT THEY WILL ALWAYS ABUSE THAT POWER. A DEMOCRATIC GOVERMNENT SHOULD TRUST AND BE HONEST WITH THEIR CITIZENS AND THEN THE CITIZENS WILL TRUST THE GOVERNMENT OTHERWISE NO GOVERNMENT WILL WORK WELL AND A REPUBLIC WILL FAIL. THE OTHER WAY TO RULE THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRIES CITIZENS IS BY PROPAGANDA, POOR EDUCATION, TERROR AND FEAR. UNFORTUNATELY THIS LATTER TYPE IS A MORE COMMON KIND OF GOVERNMENT THRU OUT MANS HISTORY.

THE DESTRUCTION OF A RARE ONE OF A KIND MUSEUM GRADE WEAPON IS MORE OF A CRIME THAN CARRYING A SIMPLE POCKET KNIFE. THE MOST IMPORTANT SURVIVAL TOOL THAT GOES BACK TO MANS EARLY PRE- HISTORY HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE KNIFE, IT IS RIGHT UP THERE WITH FIRE IN IMPORTANCE. YET THE BAN WILL INCLUDE NAIL CLIPPERS, BLUNT NOSED SISSORS AND BUTTER KNIVES CAN YOU IMAGINE GOING TO PRISON FOR YEARS FOR CARRING A SWISS ARMY KNIFE? THEY WILL HAVE TO MAKE EXAMPLES OF THAT TYPE TO TERRIFY THE LAW ABIDING INTO TOTAL SUBMISSION. THE CRIMINAL ELEMENT WILL THRIVE AND THE RICH WILL GET RICHER AND THE GOOD CITIZENS AND SOCIETY WILL SUFFER. TO LIVE IN FEAR OF YOUR GOVERNMENT AND FEAR OF THE CRIMINAL WHO YOU NO LONGER HAVE A CHANCE OF PROTECTING YOURSELF FROM IS NOT QUALITY LIFE OR FREEDOM. POOR GOVERNMENT, LAWS AND PRESS WILL DESTROY A COUNTRY AND PEOPLE JUST AS SURLEY AS AN INVADING ARMY AND MAKE IT EASIER AND FASTER FOR ENEMYS TO CONQUER.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

... I would probably have been better to outlaw the carrying of knives under most circumstance, rather than to outlaw knives.

there are already anti-carry laws here:

rant on:

you can legitimately carry a folding knife with a blade UNDER 3 inches, as long as it is not a lock knife, ie. if it's more likely to hurt you than someone else it's probably OK. swords are already illegal 'offensive' weapons that can't be carried off your own property without valid reasons (like re-enactment fairs, etc.)

anything over three inches, or fixed blades of any kind can be carried if you have a legitimate use for them, ie while on a hunting/fishing trip, just don't stop off at the grocery on the way. the police get to decide if it is legitimate or not, not you. you may need to spend a few thousand proving it in court.

push daggers, sword canes, gravity & switch blades, as well as balisongs are already prohibited 'offensive' weapons & are illegal to sell, buy, trade, or loan - you can keep any you have as long as it stays on your property & you never actually use it.

ANYTHING is considered an offensive weapon if you actually use it to defend yourself, even if it is legal to own otherwise. a man here confronted by an aggressive burglar in his kitchen picked up a steak knife & stabbed the burglar. the homeowner was arrested & went to jail for possession of an offensive weapon. canes, bats, chair legs, rolled up newspapers, sticks, are all 'offensive' weapons if used as a weapon, there is no such thing as a defensive weapon.

most of the knives turned in on the 'amnesty' were perfectly legal kitchen knives, with a sprinkling of outrageous 'fantasy' hibben style wierdo's (which of course are the ones they show on TV news). the police here love these political happenings as they can sort out the antiques and sell them on ebay to suppliment their income. my (ex) father in law, an ex-royal navy officer, had a beutiful pair of blued and gold inlayed german hunting swords he'd liberated from a german e-boat captain in ww2 that i had hoped he would leave to me, but he turned them in in another of these 'amnesties' back in the 70's - didn't do any good then, won't make a bit of difference now.

they got rid of private ownership of fire-arms (politicians exempt of course) and wonder why gun crime is up, now they'll come up with more 'urgent' anti-knife legislation to 'protect' us from ourselves. looks good to appear to be doing something, even if it hasn't a hope of actually doing anything to cure the original problem.

it is basically illegal to defend yourself in the UK under any circumstance. there are statutes supposedly allowing 'reasonable' force when defending yourself, but the police & the judiciary seem to feel that if a burglar breaks in & has a baseball bat, it is unreasonable to shoot him with a shotgun. if he attempts to beat you to a pulp, it is unreasonable to pick up a lamp & hit him with it, heaven forbid an old lady hit a thug with her walker, she'd be jailed for life.

what we are supposed to do is wait till the perp has finished doing whatever he intended, and if you survive, you call the police. they will assign a case number an send a team out to take details at some later safe time, to ensure the police are not in danger. people are routinely told that the police won't come out on such petty crimes as cars being broken into or 'simple' burglaries or B&E's as there is nothing they can do anyway.

there was a woman here who bled out after being attacked because the 'armed response' team was not sure the perp was'nt still in the house, so they waited an hour before believing the other survivors who had fled who said hge had gone already, they then went in & surprise - no perp, just a dead woman.

anyway, it's not politically correct to be in favor of armed citizenry here due to the extensive brain-washing. i am of course, considered odd for collecting edged weapons and am asked all they time why i would have such dangerous horrible demon devices....tho i am allowed a certain leeway as i am an american and we are known to be gun-totin' knife weilding crazies anyhow.

now you know why the UK never wins anything at olympic shooting or fencing events.

rant off.

[Rivkin]

I can offer just my personal experience - I went to school in slums. During my stay there 4 students were killed - one was stabbed, one had his brains blown out by a hammer, two were tied up and thrown from the 9th floor.
Trust me, you don't need a knife to kill someone - screwdriver or hammer work great. There are also tons of other possibilities, like heavy belt buckles, socks with pennies and piano strings for true weirdos. Otherwise, like it happened with me, you can just take someone and smash his head into a heater.

For some biological reasons violance is rather exciting and on some level is quite pleasant, altough the taste is an acquired one. Unfortunately, with the life of most people in slums being rather dull and gloomy, drugs, alcohol and violence is what people resort to.

[katana]

Violence is latent in all of us, to a degree the ability to attack / defend yourself is instinctive, its only circumstances and an individual ability to control their emotions that ensures that there is less violence.
Chimpanzees, have for years, been considered fairly peaceful vegetarians.....but that was far the truth. Anthropologists and zoologists have discovered, by observation that Chimpanzee's can be incredibly violent, they have the capacity to seek revenge, gain power or to bully.
Occasionally they hunt for meat, usually a small monkey; the hunting party will capture the animal and literally rip it apart, with great excitement and 'blood lust'.

Seeing that the genetic make-up of a chimp is one of the closest to Man, we can see our 'true' selves after our emotional / educated sophistication has been stripped away.
Articles used to injure/maim/kill are many and varied, as has already been stated everyday items have / are used. The source of the problems with violent attacks is not the weapons used. It is the inability of individuals to control themselves and in societies where stress is dramatically increasing....this lack of control would, surely, increase dramatically.........

[Rick]

That's not a rant , it's a legitimate gripe !
We have the same basic knife carry rules in Massachusetts as you do over in old Jolly .
These rules vary from state to state though ; for instance in Florida it's open season guns and all ! A rude gesture in traffic could get you your head blown off .
We are indeed a country of contrasts ; even in Mass. it's not too hard for an average small town bloke to get a concealed carry permit . I don't really see this as a particularly bad thing provided the bearer is sane .

Recently we had a fellow over to fix some furniture my Wife bought (imagine wasting your money on furniture when there are so many deserving swords out there looking for a home) ; to make a long story even longer I engaged him in conversation as he enjoyed the swords he had seen ; we got around to talking about guns and laws etc. and he says "here, check this out" and proceeds to pull out of his front pocket a beautiful little S&W revolver . He unloaded it and let me check it out ; "nice piece" says I "how did you ever get a permit to carry concealed" he says "it's the best thing to do when you go for your firearms ID. card ; go for the whole 9 yards , might as well before they clamp down."
Truer words were never said .

Freedoms ; use 'em or lose 'em .

[Jens Nordlunde]

This question has been discussed earlier, and there can be different ways to attack this issue. Andrew and Mark knows a lot about it, but otherwise try to contact The Danish Arms and Armour Society or the arms societies in Norway and Sweden to hear how they have made to live with an issue like that.

[Tim Simmons]

Where's my bouncey castle, that is UK slang for padded cell.

[katana]

I suppose, that the amnesty is the government's way of showing the population that something is being done. More of a PR stunt than a genuine attempt to solve the problem. Typically they miss the fact that the root of the problem is entwined with today's society.
Kids feel vunerable so they 'arm' themselves for protection .....however, the majority would never use the knife anyway.....but it could 'arm' their assailant if it was taken from them.
Knives and swords have increased kudos with many recent films and PC games glorifying their use, impressionable teenagers want to emulate this to impress their peers without really understanding the true implications of stabbing another human being.

[BSMStar]

If this knife ban truly goes into affect... someone is going to have to give up steak and just have mashed potatoes (unless the masher is on the ban list as well).

It is just my silly opinion...

In Canada, they have spent millions of dollars on registering firearms, with the goal of lowering the crime and murder rate (a good cause). But the result is that the crime and murder rate with firearms has actually increased... not decreased. Why, because criminals don't register their firearms and lawful registration does not stop criminals. It looks like Canada is going to invest its cash in other things beside registration.

Now England wants the good folks to turn in these nasty pointy sticky things... the problem is that only good folks and not criminals will comply with this "turn in " policy. The spin that we get in the end... there's another terrible weapon taken off the street... while grandma turns in her ole steak knife. Well, at least the cow agrees with that.

Aren't they over looking the real issue here, something called personal responsibility? Who is committing the crime, the firearm, the knife or could it be people? Unless we start holding people accountable for what they do and what they do it with... we are going continue to outlaw "harmful" things until we are left with nothing more than running around naked in a padded room (until someone find that harmful too, and at this rate - someone will).