my last keris

[David]

Originally Posted by milandro

there is no doubt that that thread shows a similarly oriented kris as Marco's.

And Ganjawulung is in Jakarta so not an European intetpretation

We could postulate that this is " wrong" but if several people thought this was right then maybe is right.

I have looked it up and SOME Banyumas cengkrong keris, seem to conform to this " tradition", others don't. One thing is for sure, Marco is not alone in this.

Well, "no doubt"? I couldn't say. Because those photos do not show us what it looks like from the top of the wrongko. Usually these hilts are not fixed in place so the hilt could have quite easily been turned around for the photo of when the blade is in the sheath. Not saying this is what was done. Only that there is certainly a possibility for doubt until a revealing photograph can be shown.
Now if indeed this is another example of a blade that actually is mounted in reverse position in the sheath then that make TWO. Two examples like this in all my years of looking at keris and all of Alan's years of looking at keris and all of Detlef's years, etc. etc. So if indeed you did find one other example (and i still have not seen the photograph that will prove that), then we still have an anomaly working here. Something far outside the norm. If the intention is to show that this reversal of position in the sheath is the accepted norm for keris of this type i believe we are a long way from that being shown.
So my only question here is why? Not why was it done, by why is it so important to establish this as being within the norms of Javanese keris culture. For myself, i have always appreciated the occasional oddity. And i am afraid that for the time being this remains an oddity. If it was mine i would simply enjoy it.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by David

Well, "no doubt"? I couldn't say. Because those photos do not show us what it looks like from the top of the wrongko. Usually these hilts are not fixed in place so the hilt could have quite easily been turned around for the photo of when the blade is in the sheath. Not saying this is what was done. Only that there is certainly a possibility for doubt until a revealing photograph can be shown.
Now if indeed this is another example of a blade that actually is mounted in reverse position in the sheath then that make TWO. Two examples like this in all my years of looking at keris and all of Alan's years of looking at keris and all of Detlef's years, etc. etc. So if indeed you did find one other example (and i still have not seen the photograph that will prove that), then we still have an anomaly working here. Something far outside the norm. If the intention is to show that this reversal of position in the sheath is the accepted norm for keris of this type i believe we are a long way from that being shown.
So my only question here is why? Not why was it done, by why is it so important to establish this as being within the norms of Javanese keris culture. For myself, i have always appreciated the occasional oddity. And i am afraid that for the time being this remains an oddity. If it was mine i would simply enjoy it.

some pics

[David]

Good detective work coming up with a few more examples of this odd positioning. But i would say that now the real detective work begins. Because surely the overwhelming evidence points to the fact that this is well outside the norm. Certainly the amount of keris oriented this way in the wrongko is far less than 1%. So the question here is not IF such orientation exists, however slight, but rather WHY this has been done in these rare cases.

[Marcokeris]

Sorry David, but there must be a reason why these types of dhapur are depicted in old texts with the hilt pointing in the opposite side! ....If we agree with our geometry, the reason is extremely simple: as I have already written in many previous posts: the keris could not enter, into the sheath, correctly.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Sorry David, but there must be a reason why these types of dhapur are depicted in old texts with the hilt pointing in the opposite side! ....If we agree with our geometry, the reason is extremely simple: as I have already written in many previous posts: the keris could not enter, into the sheath, correctly.

and are not rare case

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

and are not rare case

Of course it's rare. If someone like Alan Maisey states that "in over 70 years of handling & seeing keris I believe I have never seen an (apparently) professionally mounted keris set into its scabbard back to front" i don't know what else to call it.
You seem to be responding very defensively to remarks about this presentation. Obviously we aren't arguing with the fact that it exists and that others exist that are also mounted in this manner. The evidence is clear that examples exist.
I am not convinced that the reason is a simple as it could not enter the sheath properly if it wasn't reversed though. It still leaves us with the question of why is this the case and why do we have these blades that ignore the Javanese concept of condong leheh.

[A. G. Maisey]

The failure of a blade to enter an already existing scabbard is most certainly not any sort of a reason to reverse the correct position of a keris in its wrongko.

A halfway competent tukang wrongko or m'ranggi can always fit any blade to any wrongko, where a blade is so far outside the norm that it will not fit an existing wrongko, then a new wrongko will be made for it.

Now, this idea of "existing wrongko".

Yes, we can purchase low quality, premade wrongkos in a market, these pasar quality wrongkos are made with a very small hole, sometimes only a round, drilled hole, the fitting is done by first fitting the blade to the atasan (gambar), then the gandar is fitted to the atasan and the angle of gandar to atasan is fixed to accommodate the blade angle.

So we have a couple of examples of an incorrect blade fit.

I've never seen this, I've not heard of it, I cannot imagine its place in keris society. However, it does exist, so my only guess is that it was done to suit the personal philosophy of an individual.

Obviously an extremely rare variation, so I guess for some collectors whose knowledge of the keris is rooted in sources from outside Javanese keris society, this deviation in dress style might make this style of keris somewhat more desirable than would otherwise be the case.