Dating the Schiavons sword

Cathey · 30th March 2023, 07:55 AM

Hi Guys

My article for the Heritage Arms Society is getting closer to being completed; however, it has now expanded to over 17 pages and growing rapidly. I have found 135 examples including a number or strange variations, plus 4 Schiavone’s locally to examine, one with its original scabbard. Fernado’s proto example and those that have also now surfaced will need to be treated as variations I think rather than entirely new categories. I have come across some papers by Gianrodolfo Rotasso that have proved very enlightening. He has made a reference “the wonderful cage which in the following centuries will develop into various types, it is in fact due to the great master Andrea Ferrara”. However he does not go on to elaborate as to why he has credited Andrea Ferrara with the development of this hilt. Perhaps he has covered this in a publication I am yet to track down.

I am now in the process of re-reading my reference material to draw some conclusions and try and fit them into the paper in a way that makes sense, this is proving challenging.

If anyone has any additional material regarding the Schiavona written by Gianrodolfo Rotasso I would greatly appreciate access to a copy.

At present my paper is structured as follows:
Schiavonesca and the Emergence of the Cats Head Pommel
The Schiavona (also referred to as Schiavone, Schiavoni or Stratiotenschwert by some German authors)
Manufacturing centre Belluno Italy
Two categories of Schiavona
My approach to Guard development and dating
The Leather Hat
The Scabbard
The impact of the 30-year war
Schiavona Sword Blades
Schiavona Pommel Design Variety
Proto Schiavona’s?
The Skeleton Guard
The Fishnet (or Trellis) Guard
The Schiavona Rapier
Variations
Conclusion.

Cheers Cathey

Reventlov · 30th March 2023, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

My article for the Heritage Arms Society is getting closer to being completed...

I wish you luck with the writing, I have been fortunately able to publish a few pieces and know how difficult it can be!

I hadn't heard of Gianrodolfo Rotasso's work before, or this claim about Andrea Ferrara, but found it mentioned here:

Quote:

Il più noto tra i maestri spadari è però il già citato Andrea Ferara da Fonzaso, attivo nella seconda metà del Cinquecento. Le sue spade con l’elegantissimo fornimento “a tre vie” fecero epoca e da questo fornimento Ferara elaborò anche la gabbia del primo tipo di Schiavona.

Do you have a copy of Lionello Boccia's article entitled "Les épées des Esclavons: entre Venise et Illyrie", in Genava 43 (1995)?

Best,
Mark

Cathey · 31st March 2023, 01:33 AM

Hi Mark

I have a large book by Lionello Boccia but not the article you mentioned. I don’t suppose you have a copy you could send me? I would be happy to share my article with you when it is finally finished.

Cheers Cathey

Reventlov · 31st March 2023, 11:54 AM

I have read it but do not have a copy, unfortunately. I found it in one of the university libraries in my region. I'll scan it for you at my next opportunity, but this could be a few months... I don't know if that will be quick enough for your timeline.

urbanspaceman · 31st March 2023, 02:00 PM

I came across this rather ugly (IMHO) example and felt I should draw it to your attention in case it was of interest. It is currently up for auction.
This is the description translated roughly from German:
Lattice basket Schiavona, Italy around 1700, double-edged, slender blade, blade with patina and with slight traces of corrosion, openwork in the upper part, iron, somewhat loosened, cut basket hilt, with straight cross-guard, wooden grip. about 100cm

Cathey · 31st March 2023, 11:39 PM

Hi Mark, thanks for your offer, I don't mind how long it takes as I have not been able to track down a copy.

Cheers Cathey

Cathey · 1st April 2023, 02:03 AM

Hi urbanspaceman

Yes I did see this one, the blade is nice and early Italian I think, but the hilt is very odd to me. Looks like it has been played with.

Cheers Cathey

Interested Party · 1st April 2023, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Lattice basket Schiavona, Italy around 1700, double-edged, slender blade, blade with patina and with slight traces of corrosion, openwork in the upper part, iron, somewhat loosened, cut basket hilt, with straight cross-guard, wooden grip. about 100cm

Does the first picture show a pommel with a hole to receive a knuckle bow? If so, a composite piece?

30th March 2023, 07:55 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Schiavona Article Hi Guys My article for the Heritage Arms Society is getting closer to being completed; however, it has now expanded to over 17 pages and growing rapidly. I have found 135 examples including a number or strange variations, plus 4 Schiavone’s locally to examine, one with its original scabbard. Fernado’s proto example and those that have also now surfaced will need to be treated as variations I think rather than entirely new categories. I have come across some papers by Gianrodolfo Rotasso that have proved very enlightening. He has made a reference “the wonderful cage which in the following centuries will develop into various types, it is in fact due to the great master Andrea Ferrara”. However he does not go on to elaborate as to why he has credited Andrea Ferrara with the development of this hilt. Perhaps he has covered this in a publication I am yet to track down. I am now in the process of re-reading my reference material to draw some conclusions and try and fit them into the paper in a way that makes sense, this is proving challenging. If anyone has any additional material regarding the Schiavona written by Gianrodolfo Rotasso I would greatly appreciate access to a copy. At present my paper is structured as follows: Schiavonesca and the Emergence of the Cats Head Pommel The Schiavona (also referred to as Schiavone, Schiavoni or Stratiotenschwert by some German authors) Manufacturing centre Belluno Italy Two categories of Schiavona My approach to Guard development and dating The Leather Hat The Scabbard The impact of the 30-year war Schiavona Sword Blades Schiavona Pommel Design Variety Proto Schiavona’s? The Skeleton Guard The Fishnet (or Trellis) Guard The Schiavona Rapier Variations Conclusion. Cheers Cathey

31st March 2023, 01:33 AM	#3
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Lionello Boccia article Hi Mark I have a large book by Lionello Boccia but not the article you mentioned. I don’t suppose you have a copy you could send me? I would be happy to share my article with you when it is finally finished. Cheers Cathey

31st March 2023, 02:00 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Odd example I came across this rather ugly (IMHO) example and felt I should draw it to your attention in case it was of interest. It is currently up for auction. This is the description translated roughly from German: Lattice basket Schiavona, Italy around 1700, double-edged, slender blade, blade with patina and with slight traces of corrosion, openwork in the upper part, iron, somewhat loosened, cut basket hilt, with straight cross-guard, wooden grip. about 100cm Attached Images

31st March 2023, 11:39 PM	#6
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Lionello Boccia article Hi Mark, thanks for your offer, I don't mind how long it takes as I have not been able to track down a copy. Cheers Cathey

1st April 2023, 02:03 AM	#7
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Strange Schiavona for auction Hi urbanspaceman Yes I did see this one, the blade is nice and early Italian I think, but the hilt is very odd to me. Looks like it has been played with. Cheers Cathey

31st March 2023, 11:54 AM	#4
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 138	I have read it but do not have a copy, unfortunately. I found it in one of the university libraries in my region. I'll scan it for you at my next opportunity, but this could be a few months... I don't know if that will be quick enough for your timeline.