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#1 | |
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If I understood correctly the following is the correct orientation of the blade and the hilt (right Marco?) hence the reversed sheath positioning. Very unusual dhapur indeed. |
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#2 |
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yes YustYs,.This is the only correct position of this kind of blade. If you change position is the same if you to put a right shoe on a left foot
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#3 |
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not the same daphur, but just to give the idea
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#4 |
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cengkrong 5 luk , perhaps...but probably not
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#5 |
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The SKA pakem cengkrong lacks kruwingan, whilst the SKA pakem dhuwung does have kruwingan, also a cengkrong does not need to have the back edge sharp, whereas the dhuwung does.
The subject keris has a sharp back edge and kruwingan. Using the SKA pakem it cannot be anything other than dhuwung luk lima, but I have no idea at all what it might have been called at the time & in the place where it was made. I do not think this is a Central Javanese keris, more likely East Jawa, and over there it could have a half dozen other names. Actually, if we did allow that it was a cengkrong with 5 luk, in spite of the fact that it does not quite satisfy the requirements for a cengkrong, it would then be a Pandowo Cengkrong, not a Cengkrong Luk Lima. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 29th March 2023 at 08:24 AM. |
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#6 |
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I beg to differ, Marco: At least from a Surakarta perspective, this seems to be a non-sequitur.
Blades of mahesa = kebo family (including dhuwung if I may) seem to be consistently oriented in the standard position (with the gandhik to the left, tip up). All keris of one of these dhapur variants that I've seen so far (including pieces in Yogya fittings) had been fitted to scabbards (and hilts) in the standard position, too. The only exception seems to be dhapur cengkrong/cundrik which does seem to be mounted "backwards" - not sure if this is always done? (I've also seen a cengkrong/cundrik with regular gandhik and kembang kacang on the shorter side - kinda with dhungkul vibes.) Maybe the tukang confused these similar dhapur families? The scabbard appears to be modern, correct? Regards, Kai |
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#7 |
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please don't misrepresent what i write... i posted the picture taken from the Daphur book just to show why the handle is inside out
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#8 |
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Hello Marco ,
I'm sincerely trying to understand your comments and also noted that you doubt the cengkrong attribution might be suitable for this keris in post #27. What I'm trying to bring across is that both dhapur examples were not chosen well since cengkrong/cundrik seem to be treated differently compared to all other keris blades (including mahesa/kebo and, fitting best for your keris, dhuwung). This seems also supported by quite a number of keris from these resembling dhapur families that I've seen. Actually, I'd be very keen to see how large cengkrong/cundrik blades are fitted into scabbards - those I remember exhibited not as broad blade bases as shown in the reference book. Thanks for bringing up this point for us all to learn! Regards, Kai |
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#9 | |
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#10 | |
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This is what this blade put me in mind of, lacking a kembang kacang of course. At the time of purchase it was identified to me as Kebo Giri Luk Telu. I have also seen Kebo Giri named Mahesa Kanthong. I do also see much merit with Alan's suggestion of dhapur dhuwung luk lima. While the pakem drawings i have seen of dhapur dhuwung usually suggest a somewhat broader/wider blade the yours it still does seem to fit the suggest ricikan well. Though it possible this is simply a dhapur that falls between the folds. There probably should be a point where we stop trying to squeeze a keris in per-existing categories and simply just enjoy the blade for whatever it is. ![]() |
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#11 | |
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#12 |
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please, David can you show me how the keris is inserted in the gajaman?
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#13 | |
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Hello Marco,
No worries - we're pretty much all students here... ![]() Quote:
For example, all blades in Haryoguritno's book "Keris Jawa ..." are shown in standard orientation except for cengkrong/cundrik. Regards, Kai |
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#14 | |
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As Kai has repeated, the position of the hilt that you show is ONLY correct (at least according to this diagram) for cengkrong and cundrik. I personally do not believe that your blade is either one of those dhapurs, so your diagram does not apply to your keris. I am sorry that i do not have any better images at this moment to show you how my Kebo Giri fits into the wrongko, but i can assure you it is in the usual manner. You may be able to tell that from this over all image though. Again, i have NEVER seen a keris fitted to the wrongko in the reverse manner of your keris. I have no idea why anyone would do this. |
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#15 | |
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It is fitted in reverse position as expected for regular cengkrong/cundrik. Regards, Kai |
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#16 |
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My understanding for the reversed hilt position of cengkrong blades is that in the far distant past this cengkrong form was much favoured by religious gentlemen, ulamas & suchlike, and to indicate their gentle nature, as opposed to the more unrefined, warlike, aggressive nature of the general populace they wore the hilt in the reverse position, thus making it unsuited to instant use.
A similar practice also applied in Bali. By mounting the keris in such a way that the hilt is reversed, but when fitted to the scabbard it appears to be in correct dress orientation, the whole point of reverse mount of the hilt has been negated. Whoever did this reverse mount did not know such a hell of a lot about keris tradition, if indeed this blade can be classified as cengkrong. Any keris with any blade angle can be fitted to any scabbard, this is achieved by altering the angle of the gandar to the atasan/gambar. Personally, I'm prepared to accept just about any name that somebody comes up with for this dhapur, the seller clearly did not think it qualified as "cengkrong" --- according to his standards --- neither do I, but maybe somebody else might disagree, that's OK, its that person's opinion, and when there can be so much variation in keris terminology --- legitimate or not --- why pursue discussion about something so insignificant? Is perhaps the social significance of a reversed hilt of slightly more significance? |
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#17 | |
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#18 | |
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I think we sometimes spend too much time debating about names and categories, many of which possibly didn't even exist at the time the blade was actually made. And sometimes we miss the forest for the trees. ![]() |
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#19 | |
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#20 |
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yes, but from your last pic, it's no possible to understand the verse of the blade inside the sheath
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#21 |
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As you wish Marco.
But it does sometimes assist in understanding keris tradition if one attempts to understand the position of the keris within the society from which it comes, and that understanding must take account of time. |
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#22 |
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#23 | |
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![]() I am not sure that i agree that i see cengkrong/cundrik as part of the Maheas family. As to the example you posted next, which i assume you posted to illustrate your point (?), it is a confusing one because it also present a kembang pogog on one side. And if i am not mistaken, both the hilt and the kembang pogog are oriented in the normal manner in the wrongko, not reversed. If you have any examples of how regular cengkrong/cundrik are oriented in their sheaths i would love to see them as i don't believe i have ever seen one with its sheath. |
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