Johannes Hoppe Rapier and Dagger

urbanspaceman · 15th March 2023, 08:10 PM

Hi Jim.
I was actually wondering if this pair were sold in Spain in the 1600s and came to Mexico to work.
Actually, I was keen to know if this style of sword was working in Mexico in the 1600s.
You seem to be au fait with this area and this period.
Of course, it could simply be a Californian collector bought them... then sold them.
Regardless... they are a prize possession.

Jim McDougall · 15th March 2023, 10:19 PM

Hi Keith,
Interesting thoughts, but in Mexico, then Spain of course until 1821, there was little use for the rapier in the 17th century, though these were somewhat present with the conquistadors.
In the Spanish southwest, which was sparsely settled, if at all, the swords mostly in use were heavier arming swords such as the 'bilbo' and others and these were again, not in notable numbers.

California in the late 19th c. into 20th became an attractive destination with the favorable weather and prospects for the 'good life'. The 'collecting' thing was really in full swing by the 50s and 60s and actually had been since the 20s.
Movie studios in the fledgling movie making industry making historically based films brought in old arms it seems, in huge volume. Valentino himself was an avid sword collector, who bought many props in trips overseas.

I would say this rapier ended up in its location to a collector there, but as no provenance is noted, hard to say when. Whatever the case, it would be unlikely for a rapier such as this and from Solingen to end up in California or Mexico in these times.

I am presently researching the types of swords being used in California in the late 1700s into 1800s, and there is no evidence of rapiers used there or in the frontier regions of northern Mexico then or in the years earlier.
It does seem there was extended use of the cup hilt and perhaps other rapiers in the Caribbean colonies and Gulf colonies from 1600s and later.

urbanspaceman · 15th March 2023, 10:28 PM

Thanks Jim.

Merenti · 16th March 2023, 01:17 PM

Rapier and dagger show a pair of the Saxon Body Trabant Guard. However, the quality does not speak for production at the Saxon court in Dresden. I assume a production for the guards in Altenburg, Coburg or Gotha. If you want to sell or trade them, I'm very interested.

SwordLover79 · 16th March 2023, 02:45 PM

Guys: As usual, I truly appreciate the insights and feedback from the group!
The person I acquired the rapier/dagger simply told me that it came from an old collection. I have admired and held many rapiers - this is the heaviest and best balanced one that I have seen. The dagger is also well made, and appears to match the rapier perfectly. I attach some additional photos for you.

A couple of additional questions; 1. why would the dagger be unsigned? 2. would the sword and dagger have had scabbards back in the day? 3. I have attached a photo of a very similar rapier in the Philadelphia Museum of Art by Peter Munsten the Elder - suggesting that it was made in Saxon Germany 1585 - 1600. would my example be of the same period?

fernando · 16th March 2023, 04:36 PM

Looks like Merenti has it right; Saxon provenance. Rather than the dagger having no signature being an issue, if the master smith had in mind to build an inseparable duo, their aspect would be completely equal, not only similar. Down below an example of this type of dagger seen selling out there. Apparently is only plausible for a collector acquiring a sword and a left hand dagger of same typology and format, even in different occasions, and mary the couple. These are hardly Spanish, who used more often the 'sail' type. Most possibly this couple went from Germany to California with no detour by the Spaniards.
Yet everything is possible in this small world. I have a swept hilt rapier made by a famous Toledo Master which, been picked somewhere in the (Southern) States by a guy who brought back to the Peninsula (Portugal for he case), had it in exibition in the handle bars of his motorcicle, in a traditional bike meeting. If i didn't know its history i would swear that it just traveled a few hundred miles from my neighbor country.
And yes, these things had scabbards; however they were highly perishable ... only a few must have survived.

.

Merenti · 16th March 2023, 04:45 PM

The daggers of the Saxon Trabant Guard were never marked. Based on the new pictures, I am of the opinion that the dagger and rapier are historicism pieces, the blade may be original.

here pictures from the Dresden armory

fernando · 16th March 2023, 04:59 PM

Historicism guards with authentic blades; go figure !

Merenti · 16th March 2023, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Looks like Merenti has it right; Saxon provenance. Rather than the dagger having no signature being an issue, if the master smith had in mind to build an inseparable duo, their aspect would be completely equal, not only similar. Down below an example of this type of dagger seen selling out there. Apparently is only plausible for a collector acquiring a sword and a left hand dagger of same typology and format, even in different occasions, and mary the couple. These are hardly Spanish, who used more often the 'sail' type. Most possibly this couple went from Germany to California with no detour by the Spaniards.
Yet everything is possible in this small world. I have a swept hilt rapier made by a famous Toledo Master which, been picked somewhere in the (Southern) States by a guy who brought back to the Peninsula (Portugal for he case), had it in exibition in the handle bars of his motorcicle, in a traditional bike meeting. If i didn't know its history i would swear that it just traveled a few hundred miles from my neighbor country.
And yes, these things had scabbards; however they were highly perishable ... only a few must have survived.

.

https://www.hermann-historica.de/de/.../lot/id/455923

Your shown dagger is a well-known production from the historicism period

fernando · 16th March 2023, 05:39 PM

Oh ... i don't doubt that Merenti, even though the image i posted is from somewhere else; but probably from the same origin. However correct me if i am wrong; didn't you say the SwordLover's guards are historicism but the blades are authentic ? But i see that you were referring only to the dagger blade, right ?

15th March 2023, 08:10 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 647	misleading comment Hi Jim. I was actually wondering if this pair were sold in Spain in the 1600s and came to Mexico to work. Actually, I was keen to know if this style of sword was working in Mexico in the 1600s. You seem to be au fait with this area and this period. Of course, it could simply be a Californian collector bought them... then sold them. Regardless... they are a prize possession.

15th March 2023, 10:28 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 647	Response Thanks Jim.

16th March 2023, 02:45 PM	#5
SwordLover79 Member Join Date: Jun 2022 Location: San Diego Posts: 58	Johannes Hoppe Rapier Guys: As usual, I truly appreciate the insights and feedback from the group! The person I acquired the rapier/dagger simply told me that it came from an old collection. I have admired and held many rapiers - this is the heaviest and best balanced one that I have seen. The dagger is also well made, and appears to match the rapier perfectly. I attach some additional photos for you. A couple of additional questions; 1. why would the dagger be unsigned? 2. would the sword and dagger have had scabbards back in the day? 3. I have attached a photo of a very similar rapier in the Philadelphia Museum of Art by Peter Munsten the Elder - suggesting that it was made in Saxon Germany 1585 - 1600. would my example be of the same period? Attached Images

16th March 2023, 04:36 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Looks like Merenti has it right; Saxon provenance. Rather than the dagger having no signature being an issue, if the master smith had in mind to build an inseparable duo, their aspect would be completely equal, not only similar. Down below an example of this type of dagger seen selling out there. Apparently is only plausible for a collector acquiring a sword and a left hand dagger of same typology and format, even in different occasions, and mary the couple. These are hardly Spanish, who used more often the 'sail' type. Most possibly this couple went from Germany to California with no detour by the Spaniards. Yet everything is possible in this small world. I have a swept hilt rapier made by a famous Toledo Master which, been picked somewhere in the (Southern) States by a guy who brought back to the Peninsula (Portugal for he case), had it in exibition in the handle bars of his motorcicle, in a traditional bike meeting. If i didn't know its history i would swear that it just traveled a few hundred miles from my neighbor country. And yes, these things had scabbards; however they were highly perishable ... only a few must have survived. . Attached Images

16th March 2023, 04:45 PM	#7
Merenti Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Location: Germany Posts: 72	The daggers of the Saxon Trabant Guard were never marked. Based on the new pictures, I am of the opinion that the dagger and rapier are historicism pieces, the blade may be original. here pictures from the Dresden armory Attached Images

15th March 2023, 10:19 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,353	Hi Keith, Interesting thoughts, but in Mexico, then Spain of course until 1821, there was little use for the rapier in the 17th century, though these were somewhat present with the conquistadors. In the Spanish southwest, which was sparsely settled, if at all, the swords mostly in use were heavier arming swords such as the 'bilbo' and others and these were again, not in notable numbers. California in the late 19th c. into 20th became an attractive destination with the favorable weather and prospects for the 'good life'. The 'collecting' thing was really in full swing by the 50s and 60s and actually had been since the 20s. Movie studios in the fledgling movie making industry making historically based films brought in old arms it seems, in huge volume. Valentino himself was an avid sword collector, who bought many props in trips overseas. I would say this rapier ended up in its location to a collector there, but as no provenance is noted, hard to say when. Whatever the case, it would be unlikely for a rapier such as this and from Solingen to end up in California or Mexico in these times. I am presently researching the types of swords being used in California in the late 1700s into 1800s, and there is no evidence of rapiers used there or in the frontier regions of northern Mexico then or in the years earlier. It does seem there was extended use of the cup hilt and perhaps other rapiers in the Caribbean colonies and Gulf colonies from 1600s and later.

16th March 2023, 01:17 PM	#4
Merenti Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Location: Germany Posts: 72	Rapier and dagger show a pair of the Saxon Body Trabant Guard. However, the quality does not speak for production at the Saxon court in Dresden. I assume a production for the guards in Altenburg, Coburg or Gotha. If you want to sell or trade them, I'm very interested.

16th March 2023, 04:59 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Historicism guards with authentic blades; go figure !

16th March 2023, 05:39 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Oh ... i don't doubt that Merenti, even though the image i posted is from somewhere else; but probably from the same origin. However correct me if i am wrong; didn't you say the SwordLover's guards are historicism but the blades are authentic ? But i see that you were referring only to the dagger blade, right ?