Pinch of Snuff Basket-hilt

urbanspaceman · 13th March 2023, 10:58 PM

I think it has been agreed-upon that not all four digit numbers refer to dates, but there was certainly plenty blade-work going on at Hounslow in 1668.
Much has been declared regarding the period following the end of the civil war and certainly many Germans found themselves in Oxford, either at Wolvercote or Gloucester Hall.
Despite this, and despite the much repeated statement that all the mills were commandeered by Cromwell and converted to powder mills, there remained significant activity. Obviously, Cromwell was not so stupid as to totally eradicate his own source of weapons.
Kindt was in Stone's mill; Cook and Risby were still there; and Dell was certainly working for one of them until taking over either Cook or Kindt's (Stone's) mill. Probably Kindt's as I suspect that Dell had served his time with Kindt.
Also, Peter Munsten and Johannes Hoppie were still around and were actually approached by representatives of King Charles 2nd regarding re-establishing a native sword-works.
The king, in 1674, was very keen to achieve this, but sadly nothing came of it, despite the London Cutlers approving of the project. It came to nothing because it was not deemed practical in the light of massive imports flooding into the country, and the Cutler's Company lacking the power to prevent it. They had repeatedly asked for the powers to not only curb poor quality imports and Birmingham junk, but also to prevent the enormous population of highly skilled Huguenots in London from taking work of the English.
However, what is sometimes overlooked is that Charles 2nd created and privately funded his own army, and those standing troops were exercising on Hounslow Heath, so any smiths and furbours around at the time will have found plenty work. In fact, Heinrich Hoppie jnr. and Peter Henkels returned to Hounslow and were working with Dell until they all moved up to Shotley Bridge in 1685.
This was, of course, absolutely in keeping with the need to arm the Royalist and Catholic militia that abounded in the Northern counties and Scotland.
Consequently, this blade may well have come from Hounslow but equally may have been made by Huguenots operating in London (Hounslow was outside of London).
I am not au fait with the history of basket hilts but I do know that pre. civil war Stone (1629 - 1642) was making hilts from brass which seriously angered the Cutler's Company who considered them insubstantial.
Actually, looking at the name Humffreies, and the spelling of Londin I feel certain it was a Huguenot product.

Jim McDougall · 13th March 2023, 11:45 PM

Keith thank you for responding on this, and your research on English sword making reflects the outstanding command of this history which is profoundly seen in your newly published "The Crown and Crossed Swords: German Sword Smiths in Shotley Bridge".

While Shotley was a later evolution of the great Hounslow venture of the earlier 17th century with German makers, as you well note there was still notable activity there even in the 1660s. There was a great dispersal of many of the smiths there when Cromwell overtook Hounslow in 1642, when a number of them left to follow Charles I to Oxford. Still, a number remained and as you well point out, Cromwell, despite turning some of them turned the mills into powder making sites. still had sword making activity.

I think your suggestion on Hugeunot potential for this blade is well placed.
It seems this convention of adding ANNO then date practiced it seems notably in Hounslow, then London on the blades indicates this was quite plausibly as indicated. The makers name on the blade HVMFFREIS and the curiously spelled LONDIN, seem telling.
No other blades marked London have this and are spelled correctly.

While Hounslow may have had activity, it seems that while it was in the proximity of London (12miles away) it was not technically in jurisdiction of the Cutlers Co. (which is why they could get away with the brass hilts). It does seem there was always a pretty brisk 'import' of German blades from Hounslow through Shotley and in the clouded periods between where numbers of independent cutlers were supplying the Board of Ordnance.
Oddly John Hawgood petitioned the B/O for permission to import some Solingen blades to fulfill his contact in 1685.
Perhaps he was adhering to rule as he was a master of the Cutlers Co. 1687.

Just wanted to add some of what I have been absorbed in concerning this blade on this basket hilt by Thomas Humphries, whose name does not seem to occur in any reference thus far.

It does seem this is a genuine heirloom blade mounted virtually a century later in this remarkable Scottish Stirling style hilt. I had not thought of the Huguenot potential, and as always, you come up with these astute thoughts often not thought of .

Radboud · 13th March 2023, 11:59 PM

Thank you for your insights Keith, on the topic of your book, is it still possible to order a physical copy?

Thanks

urbanspaceman · 14th March 2023, 01:13 AM

Hello Radboud.
The book has not actually been published. It will be a companion to the TV doc. - whenever that is - so copies have been printed by my local printer for reference and promotion. I sent one over to Jim.
If you are in the UK, you can get the printing company to print one copy and mail it to you. A lot of folks have done this. Last price was £20 plus £5 for P&P.
It is 148 pages in B5 format (10 x 7 inches) heavy glossy stock with a spiral bind... much better than the final commercial version will be: I think that may be a luxury magazine format.
If you are not in the UK I can send you one but it is not cheap to post abroad; I think I paid £10 to send Jim's to Texas.
Let me know how I can help.
Keith.

urbanspaceman · 14th March 2023, 01:17 AM

I can send you a 15mb pdf screen res copy by email or a full size 145mb pdf by WE which you can then have printed in NZ.
The WE transfer system is very good. Either option is free to you of course.

Radboud · 14th March 2023, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I can send you a 15mb pdf screen res copy by email or a full size 145mb pdf by WE which you can then have printed in NZ.
The WE transfer system is very good. Either option is free to you of course.

Hi Keith,
I have an address in the UK that it can be posted to, I'll send you a PM.

Cheers
Bastiaan

urbanspaceman · 14th March 2023, 12:06 PM

I think I sent you a PM but it is not clear if it actioned. Let me know.

13th March 2023, 10:58 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 730	Hounslow and Londin I think it has been agreed-upon that not all four digit numbers refer to dates, but there was certainly plenty blade-work going on at Hounslow in 1668. Much has been declared regarding the period following the end of the civil war and certainly many Germans found themselves in Oxford, either at Wolvercote or Gloucester Hall. Despite this, and despite the much repeated statement that all the mills were commandeered by Cromwell and converted to powder mills, there remained significant activity. Obviously, Cromwell was not so stupid as to totally eradicate his own source of weapons. Kindt was in Stone's mill; Cook and Risby were still there; and Dell was certainly working for one of them until taking over either Cook or Kindt's (Stone's) mill. Probably Kindt's as I suspect that Dell had served his time with Kindt. Also, Peter Munsten and Johannes Hoppie were still around and were actually approached by representatives of King Charles 2nd regarding re-establishing a native sword-works. The king, in 1674, was very keen to achieve this, but sadly nothing came of it, despite the London Cutlers approving of the project. It came to nothing because it was not deemed practical in the light of massive imports flooding into the country, and the Cutler's Company lacking the power to prevent it. They had repeatedly asked for the powers to not only curb poor quality imports and Birmingham junk, but also to prevent the enormous population of highly skilled Huguenots in London from taking work of the English. However, what is sometimes overlooked is that Charles 2nd created and privately funded his own army, and those standing troops were exercising on Hounslow Heath, so any smiths and furbours around at the time will have found plenty work. In fact, Heinrich Hoppie jnr. and Peter Henkels returned to Hounslow and were working with Dell until they all moved up to Shotley Bridge in 1685. This was, of course, absolutely in keeping with the need to arm the Royalist and Catholic militia that abounded in the Northern counties and Scotland. Consequently, this blade may well have come from Hounslow but equally may have been made by Huguenots operating in London (Hounslow was outside of London). I am not au fait with the history of basket hilts but I do know that pre. civil war Stone (1629 - 1642) was making hilts from brass which seriously angered the Cutler's Company who considered them insubstantial. Actually, looking at the name Humffreies, and the spelling of Londin I feel certain it was a Huguenot product. Last edited by urbanspaceman; 13th March 2023 at 11:04 PM. Reason: Final comment.

14th March 2023, 01:13 AM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 730	Book Hello Radboud. The book has not actually been published. It will be a companion to the TV doc. - whenever that is - so copies have been printed by my local printer for reference and promotion. I sent one over to Jim. If you are in the UK, you can get the printing company to print one copy and mail it to you. A lot of folks have done this. Last price was £20 plus £5 for P&P. It is 148 pages in B5 format (10 x 7 inches) heavy glossy stock with a spiral bind... much better than the final commercial version will be: I think that may be a luxury magazine format. If you are not in the UK I can send you one but it is not cheap to post abroad; I think I paid £10 to send Jim's to Texas. Let me know how I can help. Keith. Attached Images

14th March 2023, 01:17 AM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 730	alternatively I can send you a 15mb pdf screen res copy by email or a full size 145mb pdf by WE which you can then have printed in NZ. The WE transfer system is very good. Either option is free to you of course. Last edited by urbanspaceman; 14th March 2023 at 01:18 AM. Reason: ps

13th March 2023, 11:45 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,718	Keith thank you for responding on this, and your research on English sword making reflects the outstanding command of this history which is profoundly seen in your newly published "The Crown and Crossed Swords: German Sword Smiths in Shotley Bridge". While Shotley was a later evolution of the great Hounslow venture of the earlier 17th century with German makers, as you well note there was still notable activity there even in the 1660s. There was a great dispersal of many of the smiths there when Cromwell overtook Hounslow in 1642, when a number of them left to follow Charles I to Oxford. Still, a number remained and as you well point out, Cromwell, despite turning some of them turned the mills into powder making sites. still had sword making activity. I think your suggestion on Hugeunot potential for this blade is well placed. It seems this convention of adding ANNO then date practiced it seems notably in Hounslow, then London on the blades indicates this was quite plausibly as indicated. The makers name on the blade HVMFFREIS and the curiously spelled LONDIN, seem telling. No other blades marked London have this and are spelled correctly. While Hounslow may have had activity, it seems that while it was in the proximity of London (12miles away) it was not technically in jurisdiction of the Cutlers Co. (which is why they could get away with the brass hilts). It does seem there was always a pretty brisk 'import' of German blades from Hounslow through Shotley and in the clouded periods between where numbers of independent cutlers were supplying the Board of Ordnance. Oddly John Hawgood petitioned the B/O for permission to import some Solingen blades to fulfill his contact in 1685. Perhaps he was adhering to rule as he was a master of the Cutlers Co. 1687. Just wanted to add some of what I have been absorbed in concerning this blade on this basket hilt by Thomas Humphries, whose name does not seem to occur in any reference thus far. It does seem this is a genuine heirloom blade mounted virtually a century later in this remarkable Scottish Stirling style hilt. I had not thought of the Huguenot potential, and as always, you come up with these astute thoughts often not thought of .

13th March 2023, 11:59 PM	#3
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 299	Thank you for your insights Keith, on the topic of your book, is it still possible to order a physical copy? Thanks

14th March 2023, 12:06 PM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 730	PM I think I sent you a PM but it is not clear if it actioned. Let me know.