Java keris thoughts

SidJ · 25th January 2023, 03:59 PM

Thanks Alan
I dont know what Pajajaran means but assume its also a time period?

A. G. Maisey · 25th January 2023, 07:10 PM

In Central Javanese keris belief of the1980's -'90's Pajajaran I was a a West Javanese (Sunda) kingdom that existed approximately concurrent with Majapahit.

That kingdom gave its name to a West Jawa era, and then a keris tangguh classification of Pajajaran I, Pajajaran II & Pajajaran III.

Somebody who absolutely believes that the tangguh belief system indicates a time period will also believe that a keris blade classifiable as "Pajajaran" dates from the era of historic Pajajaran.

This is what I was taught, and in the presence of my teachers and other True Believers, I also believed this, and in the presence of any True Believers today I am quite prepared to believe the same thing:- at home, in my village, I believe the same things my grandfather believes. Never argue with Granpa.

However, realistically these very old tangguh classifications are stylistically based, and a keris blade of that style will in most cases originate in the geographic area related to the name of the ancient historic political entity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakuan_Pajajaran

SidJ · 25th January 2023, 09:43 PM

Ok. So you could have a Pajajaran era styled blade that is made in more recent times or at least later than the time period of the Pajajaran era?

A. G. Maisey · 25th January 2023, 10:23 PM

Yes.

That is the reason why I always date conservatively, especially from photographs and screen images.

If a very experienced keris person, whether dealer or collector or student, handles a keris, and if he can keep it for a few days he might be able to give it a more precise date, maybe within , say, 100 years or so with older items, but from pictures & screen images there is no possibility of getting feedback, nor of doing the very detailed examination necessary to form a solid opinion.

With this keris, one thing that is very indicative of Pajajaran is the material, but we need a lot more than that.

25th January 2023, 03:59 PM	#1
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 207	Thanks Alan I dont know what Pajajaran means but assume its also a time period?

25th January 2023, 07:10 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	In Central Javanese keris belief of the1980's -'90's Pajajaran I was a a West Javanese (Sunda) kingdom that existed approximately concurrent with Majapahit. That kingdom gave its name to a West Jawa era, and then a keris tangguh classification of Pajajaran I, Pajajaran II & Pajajaran III. Somebody who absolutely believes that the tangguh belief system indicates a time period will also believe that a keris blade classifiable as "Pajajaran" dates from the era of historic Pajajaran. This is what I was taught, and in the presence of my teachers and other True Believers, I also believed this, and in the presence of any True Believers today I am quite prepared to believe the same thing:- at home, in my village, I believe the same things my grandfather believes. Never argue with Granpa. However, realistically these very old tangguh classifications are stylistically based, and a keris blade of that style will in most cases originate in the geographic area related to the name of the ancient historic political entity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakuan_Pajajaran

25th January 2023, 09:43 PM	#3
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 207	Ok. So you could have a Pajajaran era styled blade that is made in more recent times or at least later than the time period of the Pajajaran era?

25th January 2023, 10:23 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Yes. That is the reason why I always date conservatively, especially from photographs and screen images. If a very experienced keris person, whether dealer or collector or student, handles a keris, and if he can keep it for a few days he might be able to give it a more precise date, maybe within , say, 100 years or so with older items, but from pictures & screen images there is no possibility of getting feedback, nor of doing the very detailed examination necessary to form a solid opinion. With this keris, one thing that is very indicative of Pajajaran is the material, but we need a lot more than that.