Sumatran keris

milandro · 21st January 2023, 09:32 AM

Despite the Lampung (or perhaps Palembang but I believe is the first) hilt and selut , this is a think, a Javanese or perhaps even more likely Maduran blade.

I have had a couple of similar blades in the past but I din't keep pictures

jagabuwana · 21st January 2023, 10:25 AM

I'll offer an opinion, with a disclaimer that you probably shouldn't put much stock into it because I'm hoping to use it an opportunity to test myself and see what more experienced members have to say to compare.

I say Javanese based on:
- the long-ish gonjo with the tungkakan and spur ricikan (is this ari pandan). I don't know these to be Sumatran features.
- the boto rubuh blumbangan, which might lend evidence to more specific Javanese classifications like West Jawa/Sunda, except I think maybe the gonjo does not support a West Jawa claim.

rasdan · 21st January 2023, 11:37 AM

In my opinion this type of blade style spreads throughout West Java up to Palembang in Sumatera. There is very little reliable guide can be used to differentiate accurately the origin of the blade. It could well be a Sumatran piece as well as West Java piece. Style indicators can be mixed with pieces from this area.

In my opinion, what is important is that this blade has good quality and the overall blade style and dress matches the possible geographical origin of the keris. No point arguing on the origin of the blade.

David · 21st January 2023, 03:00 PM

That’s a lot to determine from a single over all photo viewed on the internet. Also, I am currently looking at this on my phone, so I don’t have the best view. We all know that certain in areas of Sumatra such as Palembang keris were greatly influenced by Jawa.
I might change my mind later when I can see this photo more closely, but this could very well be a Sumatran blade.

David · 21st January 2023, 06:22 PM

I will also say that if we are to look at a photo and try to assess a keris that the best orientation to do that is with the keris pointing upwards.

Anthony G. · 22nd January 2023, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I will also say that if we are to look at a photo and try to assess a keris that the best orientation to do that is with the keris pointing upwards.

True, thanks for the advice

I will keep that in mind.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd January 2023, 12:17 AM

Thank you Kai, I thought it looked familiar, and if that was my description when I listed it, it is still my description now.

I cannot remember everything, and once a keris leaves my hands the info I have on it gets put away.

EDIT

I've been reflecting on this keris, and I think it provides a very valuable lesson for all of us.

We all understand that it is often difficult to appraise a keris from a (usually) poor image on a screen. OK, that's a given.

But here we have a keris that I had for many years, that I sold several years ago, and that when I saw it on the screen, it confused me, I had forgotten it & did not recognise it as one I had once had in my possession.

To a degree this reflects my aging memory, but I think that just as much, it reflects how difficult it can be to appraise a keris from a photograph.

We all need to remember that a photo is only a very small part of the story, we should never be too certain about anything when the only information available is an image, especially when that image is on a screen.

David · 21st January 2023, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

- the long-ish gonjo with the tungkakan and spur ricikan (is this ari pandan). I don't know these to be Sumatran features.

I can address this one concern and say definitively that this spur feature on the gonjo (and i am not sure is this specific feature, when a stand alone in this position on the gonjo, is called ri pandan or not) can indeed be found on Sumatran keris.

A. G. Maisey · 21st January 2023, 07:07 PM

Anthony, has the gonjo been made as a separate forging, and is that forging a complex pamor miring?

David · 21st January 2023, 09:16 PM

Good questions Alan, and i would suggest that Anthony upload some higher quality close up images. I think it is difficult to be too sure about anything from this one photo.

Gustav · 21st January 2023, 09:21 PM

David, this could be a Keris from one of Alan's previous catalogues. The Gonjo seems to be separately forged from a twisted bar.

David · 21st January 2023, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

David, this could be a Keris from one of Alan's previous catalogues. The Gonjo seems to be separately forged from a twisted bar.

Yes, i agree that the gonjo does seem to be a separate forging, but still the image pixelates too quickly when i try to enlarge it.
I'm sure Alan will be able to tell us if this was a keris he had sold, especially once Anthony replies and possibly adds more detailed images.

Anthony G. · 22nd January 2023, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Anthony, has the gonjo been made as a separate forging, and is that forging a complex pamor miring?

Hi Alan

Good day. The gonjo is indeed a separate piece and left a bit of gold marking. It is a well forged pamor miring.

21st January 2023, 09:32 AM	#1
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 487	Despite the Lampung (or perhaps Palembang but I believe is the first) hilt and selut , this is a think, a Javanese or perhaps even more likely Maduran blade. I have had a couple of similar blades in the past but I din't keep pictures Last edited by milandro; 21st January 2023 at 11:40 AM. Reason: wrote sumatran but meant Javanese

21st January 2023, 06:22 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	I will also say that if we are to look at a photo and try to assess a keris that the best orientation to do that is with the keris pointing upwards. Attached Images

22nd January 2023, 12:17 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Thank you Kai, I thought it looked familiar, and if that was my description when I listed it, it is still my description now. I cannot remember everything, and once a keris leaves my hands the info I have on it gets put away. EDIT I've been reflecting on this keris, and I think it provides a very valuable lesson for all of us. We all understand that it is often difficult to appraise a keris from a (usually) poor image on a screen. OK, that's a given. But here we have a keris that I had for many years, that I sold several years ago, and that when I saw it on the screen, it confused me, I had forgotten it & did not recognise it as one I had once had in my possession. To a degree this reflects my aging memory, but I think that just as much, it reflects how difficult it can be to appraise a keris from a photograph. We all need to remember that a photo is only a very small part of the story, we should never be too certain about anything when the only information available is an image, especially when that image is on a screen. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 22nd January 2023 at 08:58 PM. Reason: further comment

21st January 2023, 10:25 AM	#2
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	I'll offer an opinion, with a disclaimer that you probably shouldn't put much stock into it because I'm hoping to use it an opportunity to test myself and see what more experienced members have to say to compare. I say Javanese based on: - the long-ish gonjo with the tungkakan and spur ricikan (is this ari pandan). I don't know these to be Sumatran features. - the boto rubuh blumbangan, which might lend evidence to more specific Javanese classifications like West Jawa/Sunda, except I think maybe the gonjo does not support a West Jawa claim.

21st January 2023, 11:37 AM	#3
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	In my opinion this type of blade style spreads throughout West Java up to Palembang in Sumatera. There is very little reliable guide can be used to differentiate accurately the origin of the blade. It could well be a Sumatran piece as well as West Java piece. Style indicators can be mixed with pieces from this area. In my opinion, what is important is that this blade has good quality and the overall blade style and dress matches the possible geographical origin of the keris. No point arguing on the origin of the blade.

21st January 2023, 03:00 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	That’s a lot to determine from a single over all photo viewed on the internet. Also, I am currently looking at this on my phone, so I don’t have the best view. We all know that certain in areas of Sumatra such as Palembang keris were greatly influenced by Jawa. I might change my mind later when I can see this photo more closely, but this could very well be a Sumatran blade.

21st January 2023, 07:07 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Anthony, has the gonjo been made as a separate forging, and is that forging a complex pamor miring?

21st January 2023, 09:16 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Good questions Alan, and i would suggest that Anthony upload some higher quality close up images. I think it is difficult to be too sure about anything from this one photo.

21st January 2023, 09:21 PM	#11
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	David, this could be a Keris from one of Alan's previous catalogues. The Gonjo seems to be separately forged from a twisted bar.