Keris sword (Not a keris)

A. G. Maisey · 19th January 2023, 12:37 PM

"Pedang Lurus" is descriptive, it is not a proper name, but it is a generic term for any pedang with a straight blade, this klewang has a curved blade, it is not a pedang lurus.

Just as "pedang lurus" is a descriptive name not a proper name, so are the names "pedang sabet" and "pedang suduk/tusuk" descriptive names, pedang sabet is generic name used for slashing swords, "pedang suduk" is generic name used for thrusting swords.

There are many types of thrusting pedangs, and many types of slashing pedangs, all with different names.

suduk means stab, sabet means whip, in krama inggil sabet simply means "pedang".

A curved blade is used to slash.

A sundrik/cundrik is by definition a thrusting weapon.

This item under discussion is dressed as a klewang, thus it is a klewang, however, the blade has not been made in the typical form of a klewang.

It is usual that when any blade is in a particular form of dress the entire object takes the name of the dress, when the blade is removed from the scabbard further classification can be applied to the blade if necessary, however, in this case that further classification cannot be as a sundrik, because here we have a weapon designed to slash, not a weapon designed to thrust.

Sogokan can be found in various types of pedang, I have had several Javanese pedangs with sogokan & also kembang kacang. These features are not common in pedangs, but they do occur.

milandro · 19th January 2023, 01:57 PM

I understood that the first time, thank you for making it yet, clearer.

I was simply offering the reason why I used a term that is , fairly common, albeit not in Indonesia.

David · 19th January 2023, 04:08 PM

Wow, so much discussion on a blade just posted today. LOL! I like that!
But i am going to transfer this one over to the Ethno forum as it is not a keris.

Gustav · 19th January 2023, 04:14 PM

Funny to see it being sold again, and its price development.

As a previous custodian I can confirm it came out of Lombok.

A. G. Maisey · 19th January 2023, 07:48 PM

Perhaps the term "pedang lurus" depends upon the location it is used in, the people who use this term, and the context.

In my experience the term is widely used exactly as I have commented, ie, as a generic, often the "lurus" is omitted, & just pedang is used, the locations I have in mind are Central Jawa, Solo & Jogja, but also in East Jawa and in South Bali.

The people using the term pedang, or pedang lurus have been dealers, craftsmen and collectors in these areas.

The same, exactly the same, terminology is used with keris, with tombak, and with sticks that fall off trees:- to differentiate between a straight blade or stick and a waved blade or stick we use the word "lurus" in one instance & "luk" or "berluk" in the other.

The word lurus is an adjective and it is used as such.

It is not a noun.

Combined with the noun "pedang" it is an absolutely legitimate use of the word.

The actual name of a pedang is a different matter, often this affixation of a correct name can become a matter of discussion & disagreement, for instance, the basic differentiation between the pedang tusuk & the pedang sabet is that one is waved and one is straight, but that is not really a tight differentiation, it is better to think of the difference in terms of use:- a pedang tusuk (or suduk) is a pedang used to thrust, a pedang sabet is a pedang that is used to slash.

Sometimes a pedang sabet might be straight, but then we have the other names. From memory I think Harsrinuksmo lists around 7 or 8 common names for pedangs. Then there is the pedang kalawijan, and in Jawa this can be a pedang that bears features that are not commonly seen on a pedang, features such as kembang kacang or sogokan, so if we really do want to be pedantic about this matter, the pedang under discussion is Pedang Kalawijan.

But that is in Jawa.

In Lombok it is a type of pedang that is known as a Klewang. I have also heard it referred to in South Bali as Klewang.

It seems that Djelengga for one agrees with my understanding.

However, in general conversation with somebody in the dealer and general tosan aji community in Solo, Jawa, this item under discussion would be referred to as a pedang, any qualifiers would be added later and could be subject to discussion & disagreement.

werecow · 21st January 2023, 03:26 PM

I've also seen at least one of these listed as "pedang benkok", but actually it may be this exact one so I don't know if that is any help.

EDIT: Yeah, it seems to be the same photo.

19th January 2023, 12:37 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	"Pedang Lurus" is descriptive, it is not a proper name, but it is a generic term for any pedang with a straight blade, this klewang has a curved blade, it is not a pedang lurus. Just as "pedang lurus" is a descriptive name not a proper name, so are the names "pedang sabet" and "pedang suduk/tusuk" descriptive names, pedang sabet is generic name used for slashing swords, "pedang suduk" is generic name used for thrusting swords. There are many types of thrusting pedangs, and many types of slashing pedangs, all with different names. suduk means stab, sabet means whip, in krama inggil sabet simply means "pedang". A curved blade is used to slash. A sundrik/cundrik is by definition a thrusting weapon. This item under discussion is dressed as a klewang, thus it is a klewang, however, the blade has not been made in the typical form of a klewang. It is usual that when any blade is in a particular form of dress the entire object takes the name of the dress, when the blade is removed from the scabbard further classification can be applied to the blade if necessary, however, in this case that further classification cannot be as a sundrik, because here we have a weapon designed to slash, not a weapon designed to thrust. Sogokan can be found in various types of pedang, I have had several Javanese pedangs with sogokan & also kembang kacang. These features are not common in pedangs, but they do occur.

19th January 2023, 01:57 PM	#2
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 487	I understood that the first time, thank you for making it yet, clearer. I was simply offering the reason why I used a term that is , fairly common, albeit not in Indonesia.

19th January 2023, 04:08 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Wow, so much discussion on a blade just posted today. LOL! I like that! But i am going to transfer this one over to the Ethno forum as it is not a keris.

19th January 2023, 04:14 PM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Funny to see it being sold again, and its price development. As a previous custodian I can confirm it came out of Lombok.

19th January 2023, 07:48 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Perhaps the term "pedang lurus" depends upon the location it is used in, the people who use this term, and the context. In my experience the term is widely used exactly as I have commented, ie, as a generic, often the "lurus" is omitted, & just pedang is used, the locations I have in mind are Central Jawa, Solo & Jogja, but also in East Jawa and in South Bali. The people using the term pedang, or pedang lurus have been dealers, craftsmen and collectors in these areas. The same, exactly the same, terminology is used with keris, with tombak, and with sticks that fall off trees:- to differentiate between a straight blade or stick and a waved blade or stick we use the word "lurus" in one instance & "luk" or "berluk" in the other. The word lurus is an adjective and it is used as such. It is not a noun. Combined with the noun "pedang" it is an absolutely legitimate use of the word. The actual name of a pedang is a different matter, often this affixation of a correct name can become a matter of discussion & disagreement, for instance, the basic differentiation between the pedang tusuk & the pedang sabet is that one is waved and one is straight, but that is not really a tight differentiation, it is better to think of the difference in terms of use:- a pedang tusuk (or suduk) is a pedang used to thrust, a pedang sabet is a pedang that is used to slash. Sometimes a pedang sabet might be straight, but then we have the other names. From memory I think Harsrinuksmo lists around 7 or 8 common names for pedangs. Then there is the pedang kalawijan, and in Jawa this can be a pedang that bears features that are not commonly seen on a pedang, features such as kembang kacang or sogokan, so if we really do want to be pedantic about this matter, the pedang under discussion is Pedang Kalawijan. But that is in Jawa. In Lombok it is a type of pedang that is known as a Klewang. I have also heard it referred to in South Bali as Klewang. It seems that Djelengga for one agrees with my understanding. However, in general conversation with somebody in the dealer and general tosan aji community in Solo, Jawa, this item under discussion would be referred to as a pedang, any qualifiers would be added later and could be subject to discussion & disagreement.

21st January 2023, 03:26 PM	#6
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 553	I've also seen at least one of these listed as "pedang benkok", but actually it may be this exact one so I don't know if that is any help. EDIT: Yeah, it seems to be the same photo.