Keris sword (Not a keris)

Anthony G. · 19th January 2023, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

No Anthony, based upon what I believe I can see in the photo, this blade has been made to incorporate characteristics that are usually found in a keris, but in my opinion it is not a keris blade that has been altered.

However, if microscopic examination of the blade edges of the curve show distortion and/or cracking, then alteration might need to be considered.

Yes, it is Lombok, where it would be called a klewang.

Hi Alan,

Thanks for the valuable advice/info.

I also attached more photos with edge pictures.

milandro · 19th January 2023, 08:04 AM

forgive my ignorance, but is is this not a Javanese Pedang Lurus ?

We see a fair amount of such blades in there Netherlands.

If this is what I think it is the blade is not a repurposed kris blade but a specially made blade, slightly curved and the only similarity is the pamor (which is not unique to krises)

http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio.../pedang-lurus/

satsujinken · 19th January 2023, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

forgive my ignorance, but is is this not a Javanese Pedang Lurus ?

We see a fair amount of such blades in there Netherlands.

If this is what I think it is the blade is not a repurposed kris blade but a specially made blade, slightly curved and the only similarity is the pamor (which is not unique to krises)

http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio.../pedang-lurus/

nope, it is not

the dress is clearly Lombok, and the hilt is of Garuda Mungkur type, though heavily stylized to obscure the "animal shape" and to look more floral

and pedang lurus is truly odd name, as it was literally means "straight sword"

we did not use the terms "pedang lurus" here ... I think it was a mistranslation somewhere when Indonesian sword terminology got there

Javanese basically knew two type of swords, called pedang sabet (slashing sword) and pedang suduk (stabbing sword)

milandro · 19th January 2023, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by satsujinken

and pedang lurus is truly odd name, as it was literally means "straight sword"

we did not use the terms "pedang lurus" here ... I think it was a mistranslation somewhere when Indonesian sword terminology got there

Thanks , always ready to learn something new

About " there" and its whereabouts.

I am not sure where " there" is though....the word Pedang Lurus is used in 47 previous threads ( 48 with this now) on the fora of vikingsword, and on line even some Indonesian sites use it, next to many auction houses around the world.

In Indonesia it may have a general meaning ut its use, incorrect though it is, is very well established, I think, from what I see .

jagabuwana · 19th January 2023, 11:25 AM

Milandro - though "pedang lurus" is commonly used here in this forum, in all my conversations in bahasa Indonesia or Sundanese with native speakers, swords have always been referred to as "pedang" and never pedang lurus.

My quick look in Google Indonesia would also have it that "pedang lurus" is almost always used on English-speaking sources to describe usually Javanese swords of various types, even ones with obvious sabre-like curves in them (as yours does), which to my ears is kinda odd given that lurus unambiguously means "straight".

The Indonesian sources I do see using the term to describe similar Indonesian/Javanese swords are sellers. Otherwise it used to describe swords of other cultures that are straight such as jians and claymores.

A. G. Maisey · 19th January 2023, 12:37 PM

"Pedang Lurus" is descriptive, it is not a proper name, but it is a generic term for any pedang with a straight blade, this klewang has a curved blade, it is not a pedang lurus.

Just as "pedang lurus" is a descriptive name not a proper name, so are the names "pedang sabet" and "pedang suduk/tusuk" descriptive names, pedang sabet is generic name used for slashing swords, "pedang suduk" is generic name used for thrusting swords.

There are many types of thrusting pedangs, and many types of slashing pedangs, all with different names.

suduk means stab, sabet means whip, in krama inggil sabet simply means "pedang".

A curved blade is used to slash.

A sundrik/cundrik is by definition a thrusting weapon.

This item under discussion is dressed as a klewang, thus it is a klewang, however, the blade has not been made in the typical form of a klewang.

It is usual that when any blade is in a particular form of dress the entire object takes the name of the dress, when the blade is removed from the scabbard further classification can be applied to the blade if necessary, however, in this case that further classification cannot be as a sundrik, because here we have a weapon designed to slash, not a weapon designed to thrust.

Sogokan can be found in various types of pedang, I have had several Javanese pedangs with sogokan & also kembang kacang. These features are not common in pedangs, but they do occur.

milandro · 19th January 2023, 01:57 PM

I understood that the first time, thank you for making it yet, clearer.

I was simply offering the reason why I used a term that is , fairly common, albeit not in Indonesia.

19th January 2023, 08:04 AM	#2
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 487	forgive my ignorance, but is is this not a Javanese Pedang Lurus ? We see a fair amount of such blades in there Netherlands. If this is what I think it is the blade is not a repurposed kris blade but a specially made blade, slightly curved and the only similarity is the pamor (which is not unique to krises) http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio.../pedang-lurus/

19th January 2023, 11:25 AM	#5
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	Milandro - though "pedang lurus" is commonly used here in this forum, in all my conversations in bahasa Indonesia or Sundanese with native speakers, swords have always been referred to as "pedang" and never pedang lurus. My quick look in Google Indonesia would also have it that "pedang lurus" is almost always used on English-speaking sources to describe usually Javanese swords of various types, even ones with obvious sabre-like curves in them (as yours does), which to my ears is kinda odd given that lurus unambiguously means "straight". The Indonesian sources I do see using the term to describe similar Indonesian/Javanese swords are sellers. Otherwise it used to describe swords of other cultures that are straight such as jians and claymores.

19th January 2023, 12:37 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	"Pedang Lurus" is descriptive, it is not a proper name, but it is a generic term for any pedang with a straight blade, this klewang has a curved blade, it is not a pedang lurus. Just as "pedang lurus" is a descriptive name not a proper name, so are the names "pedang sabet" and "pedang suduk/tusuk" descriptive names, pedang sabet is generic name used for slashing swords, "pedang suduk" is generic name used for thrusting swords. There are many types of thrusting pedangs, and many types of slashing pedangs, all with different names. suduk means stab, sabet means whip, in krama inggil sabet simply means "pedang". A curved blade is used to slash. A sundrik/cundrik is by definition a thrusting weapon. This item under discussion is dressed as a klewang, thus it is a klewang, however, the blade has not been made in the typical form of a klewang. It is usual that when any blade is in a particular form of dress the entire object takes the name of the dress, when the blade is removed from the scabbard further classification can be applied to the blade if necessary, however, in this case that further classification cannot be as a sundrik, because here we have a weapon designed to slash, not a weapon designed to thrust. Sogokan can be found in various types of pedang, I have had several Javanese pedangs with sogokan & also kembang kacang. These features are not common in pedangs, but they do occur.

19th January 2023, 01:57 PM	#7
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 487	I understood that the first time, thank you for making it yet, clearer. I was simply offering the reason why I used a term that is , fairly common, albeit not in Indonesia.