The Scythe as a weapon.

kronckew · 8th January 2023, 05:03 PM

The khopesh appears to have evolved from the Epsilon Axe popular in the area at the time. Not from the sickle or scythe. Being ductile bronze, it (and the epsilon) was not used for chopping, but for slicing draw and push cuts. There was a 'chopping' version of the axe, the duckbill, that was designed for chopping, and the egyptian bronze penetrative axe was also.

Jim McDougall · 8th January 2023, 07:02 PM

Great observation Wayne, it does seem well established that many weapon forms did derive from various tools and utility implements. Pretty much anything can become a weapon of opportunity in the moment, but the dynamics of certain tools are obviously more suited for enhancement as weapons.

It is most interesting how little iron was available in ancient Egypt.

Peter Hudson · 8th January 2023, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Great observation Wayne, it does seem well established that many weapon forms did derive from various tools and utility implements. Pretty much anything can become a weapon of opportunity in the moment, but the dynamics of certain tools are obviously more suited for enhancement as weapons.

It is most interesting how little iron was available in ancient Egypt.

Hello Jim and you point on iron is well taken. I noted that often the weapon was left unsharpened and this could have been that it was more of a badge of office as a Pharoah guard...
Regards, Peter.

Peter Hudson · 8th January 2023, 08:05 PM

The history of Scythes is well covered at http://scytheassociation.org/history/

Peter Hudson · 9th January 2023, 12:33 AM

In choosing where to search for where to look at how weapons developed from The Scythe and/or the Sickle it is worth noting from a key reference at http://scytheassociation.org/history/QUOTE"The scythe is a tool specially adapted for cutting vegetation at ground level. There is no other reason for its existence: it is useless at hand height and (unlike the machete) very unwieldy as a weapon. Initially it was probably designed for grass; but as pasture became harder to find, and livestock were increasingly fed on different kinds of straw, the importance of cutting oats, barley and other grains close to the ground became more important and the scythe began to replace the sickle as a way of harvesting crops. The scythe is therefore found in most areas of the world where grass and grains such as wheat, barley, oats or rye are the predominate agricultural crop. The scythe belt emanates from Europe and the Middle East, but extends from the Mid West of Canada and the US A, through the whole of Europe, much of Russia, the Middle East, Egypt and some other north African countries, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Kirghizstan and other colonies of the former USSR, a few parts of China and of the Indian subcontinent to Australia".UNQUOTE.

Peter Hudson · 9th January 2023, 01:01 AM

During the Kościuszko Uprising, Chrystian_Piotr_Aigner pictured below wrote "Krótka nauka o kosach i pikach" ("A Brief Treatise on Scythes and Pikes"), which provided a theory for operating on the field of battle with formations of scythemen and pikemen.[9]

Peter Hudson · 9th January 2023, 01:49 AM

i DISCOVERED A SUPERB RENDITION about Scythes...as weapons of war at
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...3D72E20A96F73D

It gives a breakdown of more than 500 years of conclusive use of Scythes as weapons of war in Europe and names many museums where they are displayed.

Regards, Peter Hudson.

The detail below; The Morning of Sedgemoor by Edgar Bundy (1862–1922). The artist shows the improvised nature of the weapon, the blade lashed to a crudely dressed sapling. Image: Tate/Digital Image © Tate, London 2014. The Battle detail is: The Battle of Sedgemoor was the last and decisive engagement between the Kingdom of England and rebels led by the Duke of Monmouth during the Monmouth rebellion, fought on 6 July 1685.

Peter Hudson · 8th January 2023, 07:44 PM

Dear Kronckew,

Indeed it is the difficulty in knowing what a Scythe looked like in ancient times which makes how if at all it developed into a weapon... It is probable that a sickle form developed into a weapon although where and when and what these weapons were is a hard guess... Add to that the number of sword types as in the second picture on https://www.pinterest.co.uk/buzzpinard/swords/
As the search spreads out so do the permutations and many must be developments in a similar but quite unrelated forms such as at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karambit Add the Panabas to that situation seen at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panabas

Closer to home may be the creation we know as Yatagan... however my initial question was I hope more specific and which I hope I have indicated in and arround the Polish variants of purely battle pole arms in the pictures at thread. As a caveat to that I am interested in knowing what Austria has to do with the tool and or weapon? since the Scythe is often termed The Austrian Scythe....and did that come about from a Sword type or Scythe introduced from Ottoman concepts into Styria?
Regards,
Peter Hudson.

8th January 2023, 05:03 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	The khopesh appears to have evolved from the Epsilon Axe popular in the area at the time. Not from the sickle or scythe. Being ductile bronze, it (and the epsilon) was not used for chopping, but for slicing draw and push cuts. There was a 'chopping' version of the axe, the duckbill, that was designed for chopping, and the egyptian bronze penetrative axe was also. Attached Images

9th January 2023, 12:33 AM	#5
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 342	In choosing where to search for where to look at how weapons developed from The Scythe and/or the Sickle it is worth noting from a key reference at http://scytheassociation.org/history/QUOTE"The scythe is a tool specially adapted for cutting vegetation at ground level. There is no other reason for its existence: it is useless at hand height and (unlike the machete) very unwieldy as a weapon. Initially it was probably designed for grass; but as pasture became harder to find, and livestock were increasingly fed on different kinds of straw, the importance of cutting oats, barley and other grains close to the ground became more important and the scythe began to replace the sickle as a way of harvesting crops. The scythe is therefore found in most areas of the world where grass and grains such as wheat, barley, oats or rye are the predominate agricultural crop. The scythe belt emanates from Europe and the Middle East, but extends from the Mid West of Canada and the US A, through the whole of Europe, much of Russia, the Middle East, Egypt and some other north African countries, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Kirghizstan and other colonies of the former USSR, a few parts of China and of the Indian subcontinent to Australia".UNQUOTE. Attached Images Last edited by Peter Hudson; 9th January 2023 at 12:47 AM.

9th January 2023, 01:01 AM	#6
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 342	During the Kościuszko Uprising, Chrystian_Piotr_Aigner pictured below wrote "Krótka nauka o kosach i pikach" ("A Brief Treatise on Scythes and Pikes"), which provided a theory for operating on the field of battle with formations of scythemen and pikemen.[9] Attached Images Last edited by Peter Hudson; 9th January 2023 at 01:50 AM.

9th January 2023, 01:49 AM	#7
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 342	i DISCOVERED A SUPERB RENDITION about Scythes...as weapons of war at https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...3D72E20A96F73D It gives a breakdown of more than 500 years of conclusive use of Scythes as weapons of war in Europe and names many museums where they are displayed. Regards, Peter Hudson. The detail below; The Morning of Sedgemoor by Edgar Bundy (1862–1922). The artist shows the improvised nature of the weapon, the blade lashed to a crudely dressed sapling. Image: Tate/Digital Image © Tate, London 2014. The Battle detail is: The Battle of Sedgemoor was the last and decisive engagement between the Kingdom of England and rebels led by the Duke of Monmouth during the Monmouth rebellion, fought on 6 July 1685. Attached Images Last edited by Peter Hudson; 9th January 2023 at 02:13 AM.

8th January 2023, 07:02 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,660	Great observation Wayne, it does seem well established that many weapon forms did derive from various tools and utility implements. Pretty much anything can become a weapon of opportunity in the moment, but the dynamics of certain tools are obviously more suited for enhancement as weapons. It is most interesting how little iron was available in ancient Egypt.

8th January 2023, 08:05 PM	#4
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 342	The history of Scythes is well covered at http://scytheassociation.org/history/

8th January 2023, 07:44 PM	#8
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 342	Dear Kronckew, Indeed it is the difficulty in knowing what a Scythe looked like in ancient times which makes how if at all it developed into a weapon... It is probable that a sickle form developed into a weapon although where and when and what these weapons were is a hard guess... Add to that the number of sword types as in the second picture on https://www.pinterest.co.uk/buzzpinard/swords/ As the search spreads out so do the permutations and many must be developments in a similar but quite unrelated forms such as at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karambit Add the Panabas to that situation seen at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panabas Closer to home may be the creation we know as Yatagan... however my initial question was I hope more specific and which I hope I have indicated in and arround the Polish variants of purely battle pole arms in the pictures at thread. As a caveat to that I am interested in knowing what Austria has to do with the tool and or weapon? since the Scythe is often termed The Austrian Scythe....and did that come about from a Sword type or Scythe introduced from Ottoman concepts into Styria? Regards, Peter Hudson.