Dating the Schiavons sword

urbanspaceman · 6th January 2023, 01:55 PM

Incidentally: that first sword I posted has obviously had the pommel replaced - perhaps by the original owner. The hook for the retaining ring to what was the cat's head is plainly visible.

urbanspaceman · 6th January 2023, 02:15 PM

Firstly, Cathey, please accept my grateful thanks for starting this thread.
Secondly, I suspect I am wrong about the pommel and hook.
Looking at those dating images I see the hook is often present regardless of a retaining ring or hole for its location... sorry about that, I must stop trying to view on my phone.

urbanspaceman · 7th January 2023, 07:00 PM

I'm raising more questions I'm afraid.
First: what are those little hooks for, if not for attaching to the pommel?
Second: is that a wootz blade!!! on the luxurious sword I posted?

Cathey · 8th January 2023, 05:03 AM

Hi Urbanspaceman

I don’t think we are looking at a wootz blade, just some pixelization in the image on that one. I know the site it is currently posted on and some of the images always appear to be lower resolution and tend to pixelate.

With regard to pommels, it appears the latter the sword the fancier the pommel. Also, if it is a fancier version obviously made to order the pommels again vary greatly. I have a sword with a plain Iron pommel that has a mark for the hole, which is not punched through. The brass pommels and wire wrapped guards appear more often on latter swords, the early one plain iron with leather wrapping sewn in place on the grips.

My article research is progressing, so far I have had to google translate, Serbian, french, German and Italian.

Here is my latest Schiavona probably around circa 1780. Note this one has a wire wrapped grip and the most complex hilt variety, being three rows of lattice pattern. This is the one where the hole in the pommel does not go through and at this stage, I have not been able to identify the mark on the forte.

Cheers Cathey

Victrix · 8th January 2023, 11:36 AM

The last sword may be a composite. The iron pommel looks like a modern replacement to me. The blade does not seem to fit the lattice basket and does not seem to be original to it as the tang is visible and forms a ricasso. A similar composite is illustrated in “White Arms of the Royal Armoury” (Sweden, 1984) by Lena Nordström.

Cathey · 8th January 2023, 12:27 PM

Hi Victrix

I have to disagree with you on this one, having the advantage of having this sword in my hand and knowing the provenance of the collection it came from. Many of these latter Shiavona’s, have blades of this type that are original to the sword. The blade is the correct period for this hilt. Perhaps the photos do not show the age and consistency of the patina on the component parts. Also the entire sword has wonderful balance considering the size of the blade.

Cheers Cathey

urbanspaceman · 8th January 2023, 08:26 PM

Take a careful look at this image below:
there is no pixelation on any of the hilt.
The image is pretty sharp; although I take your point regarding some of his pictures.
I would suggest extra eyes on this one because I think it is wootz but I will wait and see who else agrees/disagrees.

6th January 2023, 01:55 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 688	PS Incidentally: that first sword I posted has obviously had the pommel replaced - perhaps by the original owner. The hook for the retaining ring to what was the cat's head is plainly visible.

6th January 2023, 02:15 PM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 688	PPS Firstly, Cathey, please accept my grateful thanks for starting this thread. Secondly, I suspect I am wrong about the pommel and hook. Looking at those dating images I see the hook is often present regardless of a retaining ring or hole for its location... sorry about that, I must stop trying to view on my phone.

7th January 2023, 07:00 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 688	Me again I'm raising more questions I'm afraid. First: what are those little hooks for, if not for attaching to the pommel? Second: is that a wootz blade!!! on the luxurious sword I posted?

8th January 2023, 05:03 AM	#4
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	The Shiavona Hi Urbanspaceman I don’t think we are looking at a wootz blade, just some pixelization in the image on that one. I know the site it is currently posted on and some of the images always appear to be lower resolution and tend to pixelate. With regard to pommels, it appears the latter the sword the fancier the pommel. Also, if it is a fancier version obviously made to order the pommels again vary greatly. I have a sword with a plain Iron pommel that has a mark for the hole, which is not punched through. The brass pommels and wire wrapped guards appear more often on latter swords, the early one plain iron with leather wrapping sewn in place on the grips. My article research is progressing, so far I have had to google translate, Serbian, french, German and Italian. Here is my latest Schiavona probably around circa 1780. Note this one has a wire wrapped grip and the most complex hilt variety, being three rows of lattice pattern. This is the one where the hole in the pommel does not go through and at this stage, I have not been able to identify the mark on the forte. Cheers Cathey Attached Images

8th January 2023, 11:36 AM	#5
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	The last sword may be a composite. The iron pommel looks like a modern replacement to me. The blade does not seem to fit the lattice basket and does not seem to be original to it as the tang is visible and forms a ricasso. A similar composite is illustrated in “White Arms of the Royal Armoury” (Sweden, 1984) by Lena Nordström. Attached Images

8th January 2023, 12:27 PM	#6
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Circa 1780 Schiavona, the last pattern Hi Victrix I have to disagree with you on this one, having the advantage of having this sword in my hand and knowing the provenance of the collection it came from. Many of these latter Shiavona’s, have blades of this type that are original to the sword. The blade is the correct period for this hilt. Perhaps the photos do not show the age and consistency of the patina on the component parts. Also the entire sword has wonderful balance considering the size of the blade. Cheers Cathey

8th January 2023, 08:26 PM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 688	wootz or what Take a careful look at this image below: there is no pixelation on any of the hilt. The image is pretty sharp; although I take your point regarding some of his pictures. I would suggest extra eyes on this one because I think it is wootz but I will wait and see who else agrees/disagrees. Attached Images