Coyness in posting keris pics

Green · 6th January 2023, 02:42 AM

David;

The explanation by Alan about 'pusaka ' is exactly what is also meant in the Malay world of Malaysia and Southern Thailand. And there is no taboo or restriction whatever from selling whatever heirlooms(pusaka). Except for personal emotional attachment to it. No mumbo jumbo about spirits of pusaka or jins or whatever. At least in modern Malay muslim world.

With regards to keris competition in Malaysia and Southern Thailand I've been to many (but not participating in the competition itself) and know many of the pioneers of these competitions and judges. Basically the original intention was so as to generate more interest and encourage more people to love their keris culture and to bring to the public the best kerises for all to appreciate. There are specific criteria for judging and these are done as objectively as the judges can. Criteria include types of blades, complete and undamaged blade without and repairs, symbolisms (ketandaan), pamor, etc.The quality of hilts and Sheath and added decorations .Old antiques kerises and new creations are judged separately.

A. G. Maisey · 6th January 2023, 07:38 AM

I think that what you relate in post #25 is probably pretty true of Indonesia also Green, however, my experience of Indonesia is limited to Central Jawa, mainly Solo, East Jawa, mainly Malang, places south & east of Malang, Madura, and Bali.

I have spent very little time in major cities like Jakarta & Surabaya, in fact I have not been to Jakarta since 1978. Virtually all the contact I have with people in Jawa is with quite conservative Javanese people on the one hand, and very humble grass roots Javanese people on the other hand.

Most of what I know about keris, most of what I believe about keris I learnt in Solo in the period between 1966 and 2015. Most of that instruction came from men who began their journey with the keris prior to WWII. I think all these people have now passed, but I still have friends and acquaintances in Solo who are of senior generations, and from what I can understand, their values do not seem to vary much from the values of my past teachers.

I have set forth in post #22 my observations in respect of keris display.It seems to me that both the bulk of the people I used to know & who have already passed, and the bulk of people I still know and who are still in this world hold the opinion that keris display of virtually any kind is, in a word, crass, and not really the correct way for a Javanese gentleman to behave.

There is an immense variation between overall Indonesian standards & values as they are now, and the standards & values of conservative Central Javanese traditionalists.

rasdan · 6th January 2023, 09:25 PM

Thank you for your reply Alan. I guess to the traditional Javanese the public space is not a place for flaunting their strength or knowledge, but they will add indicators of caution. It is not a place for pretenders. It is a rather different kind of worldview.

I think in essence, we can say that the keris as a pusaka, in traditional Javanese belief is an weapon/talisman/icon of authority that was passed down the generations.

The pusaka keris shows the strength, hierarchy and dreams of the owner and his forefathers. It also probably show the connection between the owner to the Javanese king.

Probably (this is just a guess) the traditional Javanese probably also believe that the amulet will only function if it is passed down as a heirloom (pusaka), not if it is purchased. A Javanese will not carry around his pusaka keris unless that keris was made as an amulet for the occasion that person is participating.

If a keris is purchased, a collection, the function of a keris as an talisman and as pusaka (obviously) no longer applies, thus it is not part of the no display restriction rule. This is clearly not an Islamic practice, but the traditional Javanese belief is a mix between Javanese culture and Islam. If a person does not share his keris collection that are not pusaka(s), the reason is probably he does not want to share the knowledge of the keris. Knowledge is money and money is power - this is also one of the reasons why the pusaka keris are not shared publicly.

That, in my opinion is the meaning of a pusaka keris in a traditional Javanese belief system and why it is treated in such secrecy. I hope fellow forumites can correct me if I am wrong.

David · 6th January 2023, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

The explanation by Alan about 'pusaka ' is exactly what is also meant in the Malay world of Malaysia and Southern Thailand. And there is no taboo or restriction whatever from selling whatever heirlooms(pusaka). Except for personal emotional attachment to it. No mumbo jumbo about spirits of pusaka or jins or whatever. At least in modern Malay muslim world.

I don't believe i ever claimed there were taboos or restrictions about selling keris pusaka nor do i have any problem with anyone wanting to sell their pusaka. That is their personal choice and right. Nor did i mention anything about "mumbo jumbo, spirits of pusaka or jins or whatever". So i am a bit confused by this response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

With regards to keris competition in Malaysia and Southern Thailand I've been to many (but not participating in the competition itself) and know many of the pioneers of these competitions and judges. Basically the original intention was so as to generate more interest and encourage more people to love their keris culture and to bring to the public the best kerises for all to appreciate. There are specific criteria for judging and these are done as objectively as the judges can. Criteria include types of blades, complete and undamaged blade without and repairs, symbolisms (ketandaan), pamor, etc.The quality of hilts and Sheath and added decorations .Old antiques kerises and new creations are judged separately.

I have no problem whatsoever about generating interest in the keris. In fact i very much like to encourage that. But i still find the idea of competitive judging for old blades strange. If i win one of the categories in these competitions it seems to be little more than an indication of my wealth, status and connections that have allowed me to obtain such an award winning keris. With new keris at least the award gives credit and encouragement to living keris makers which i would think is a good thing. But most antique blades we can only guess at who the creator might have been.

6th January 2023, 09:25 PM	#3
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Thank you for your reply Alan. I guess to the traditional Javanese the public space is not a place for flaunting their strength or knowledge, but they will add indicators of caution. It is not a place for pretenders. It is a rather different kind of worldview. I think in essence, we can say that the keris as a pusaka, in traditional Javanese belief is an weapon/talisman/icon of authority that was passed down the generations. The pusaka keris shows the strength, hierarchy and dreams of the owner and his forefathers. It also probably show the connection between the owner to the Javanese king. Probably (this is just a guess) the traditional Javanese probably also believe that the amulet will only function if it is passed down as a heirloom (pusaka), not if it is purchased. A Javanese will not carry around his pusaka keris unless that keris was made as an amulet for the occasion that person is participating. If a keris is purchased, a collection, the function of a keris as an talisman and as pusaka (obviously) no longer applies, thus it is not part of the no display restriction rule. This is clearly not an Islamic practice, but the traditional Javanese belief is a mix between Javanese culture and Islam. If a person does not share his keris collection that are not pusaka(s), the reason is probably he does not want to share the knowledge of the keris. Knowledge is money and money is power - this is also one of the reasons why the pusaka keris are not shared publicly. That, in my opinion is the meaning of a pusaka keris in a traditional Javanese belief system and why it is treated in such secrecy. I hope fellow forumites can correct me if I am wrong. Last edited by rasdan; 7th January 2023 at 01:06 AM.

6th January 2023, 02:42 AM	#1
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 320	David; The explanation by Alan about 'pusaka ' is exactly what is also meant in the Malay world of Malaysia and Southern Thailand. And there is no taboo or restriction whatever from selling whatever heirlooms(pusaka). Except for personal emotional attachment to it. No mumbo jumbo about spirits of pusaka or jins or whatever. At least in modern Malay muslim world. With regards to keris competition in Malaysia and Southern Thailand I've been to many (but not participating in the competition itself) and know many of the pioneers of these competitions and judges. Basically the original intention was so as to generate more interest and encourage more people to love their keris culture and to bring to the public the best kerises for all to appreciate. There are specific criteria for judging and these are done as objectively as the judges can. Criteria include types of blades, complete and undamaged blade without and repairs, symbolisms (ketandaan), pamor, etc.The quality of hilts and Sheath and added decorations .Old antiques kerises and new creations are judged separately.

6th January 2023, 07:38 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,988	I think that what you relate in post #25 is probably pretty true of Indonesia also Green, however, my experience of Indonesia is limited to Central Jawa, mainly Solo, East Jawa, mainly Malang, places south & east of Malang, Madura, and Bali. I have spent very little time in major cities like Jakarta & Surabaya, in fact I have not been to Jakarta since 1978. Virtually all the contact I have with people in Jawa is with quite conservative Javanese people on the one hand, and very humble grass roots Javanese people on the other hand. Most of what I know about keris, most of what I believe about keris I learnt in Solo in the period between 1966 and 2015. Most of that instruction came from men who began their journey with the keris prior to WWII. I think all these people have now passed, but I still have friends and acquaintances in Solo who are of senior generations, and from what I can understand, their values do not seem to vary much from the values of my past teachers. I have set forth in post #22 my observations in respect of keris display.It seems to me that both the bulk of the people I used to know & who have already passed, and the bulk of people I still know and who are still in this world hold the opinion that keris display of virtually any kind is, in a word, crass, and not really the correct way for a Javanese gentleman to behave. There is an immense variation between overall Indonesian standards & values as they are now, and the standards & values of conservative Central Javanese traditionalists.