Coyness in posting keris pics

A. G. Maisey · 5th January 2023, 05:34 AM

I agree completely Green.

Absolutely a personal choice.

However, for the traditionalists of Central Jawa whom I know and have known, that personal choice was and is to observe the ways of their forefathers, and these ways include and have included the non-display of personal keris.

The people who arrange keris exhibitions do so to exhibit keris, most would be dealers, makers, collectors. If there were any Central Javanese traditionalists amongst them I would be prepared to place a wager that none of these traditionalists had placed a keris that he regarded as a personal keris, on display.

In fact, I can very clearly recall a discussion between some gentlemen I used to know (all have passed now) in Solo during the 1980's who were debating the morality of putting keris on display.

Some of these men were of the opinion that it was quite OK to display keris, provided that the keris displayed were not keris that a person regarded as his personal property.

Others maintained that the only time a keris should be shown to other than close, trusted friends was when that keris was being offered for sale.

But others thought that apart from being morally wrong to display keris that were in one's custody, it was an act of extremely poor taste to engage in any act of display, be that display of keris or any other object. To these men it was just plain bad manners, indicative of a person who had no personal standards, or who "was not yet Javanese", ie, one who behaved like a child.

So --- yes personal choice, and we all have our own standards.

rasdan · 5th January 2023, 07:29 PM

I have a bit digressing question about personal keris for our fellow forum member Alan.

On keeping a personal keris private, does this include the secrecy of the dhapur/pamor type of the particular keris and the naming (Kiyai X and Kyai Y) of the keris?

If the dhapur is a secret, I would imagine that a keris with dhapur X will never be named Kyai X. Or is it considered OK?

I have seen a list of kraton pusaka and some of the pusakas are named Kyai Sangkelat (for example), does this means that the keris is dhapur sangkelat or could the keris be of a different dhapur than the name suggests?

A. G. Maisey · 5th January 2023, 09:11 PM

Rasdan, I cannot give a definite, factual response to that question, all I know for certain is that amongst the people who were close friends & associates of PP, and amongst some older people whom I know well, there are a couple of things that should not be done:-

1) no open display of a personal keris to strangers

2) no display of personal belongings, wealth, or self ever; one should always appear to be less than what one really is; the idea behind this is, I think, that if a person is truly a force to be reckoned with, that will be obvious to all, no matter what the eyes might see of the person concerned.

None of this gets down to specifics or regulated instructions, it is all part of an overall pattern of behaviour.

Here is a little story, personal experience.

About 30 years ago I was invited to a wedding dinner. It was the marriage of an Indonesian relative to the son of an Indonesian gentleman who had made his wealth through timber concessions and had then diversified into manufacturing & tourist accommodation. The family was one of the wealthiest in Indonesia at that time.

As seems to be customary for a lot of Indonesians who have one foot in Indonesia & one foot in some other country, this couple did not have a single wedding, they had several, a couple in Indonesia in different locations, a couple in Australia, one in Sydney, one in Melbourne, I attended the Sydney one.

At the wedding dinner, the father, a gentleman of about 70, weighing no more than about 60kg & standing no more than about 5'2" tall, was wearing a badly fitting, crumpled, dusty, worn, blue pinstripe suit. His watch was a black plastic Casio. No personal jewellery, not even a wedding ring. His wife looked as if she had spent the entire day before the dinner in Sydney's most talented beautician's premises, she wore a simple black frock that I was later told she had ordered from her regular supplier in Paris. She wore only one piece of jewellery, a simple pendent:- the chain was gold and about as thick as my little finger, the pendent itself was a single diamond, about the size of a large pigeon egg.

Was the father of the bride a powerful man?

Well, by himself nobody would take the slightest notice of him, but in company with his wife anybody with half a brain would know to step very carefully indeed.

In Javanese society statements are never made directly, one needs to be able to understand that which is not spoken, that which is not obvious. One speaks by not speaking.

5th January 2023, 05:34 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	I agree completely Green. Absolutely a personal choice. However, for the traditionalists of Central Jawa whom I know and have known, that personal choice was and is to observe the ways of their forefathers, and these ways include and have included the non-display of personal keris. The people who arrange keris exhibitions do so to exhibit keris, most would be dealers, makers, collectors. If there were any Central Javanese traditionalists amongst them I would be prepared to place a wager that none of these traditionalists had placed a keris that he regarded as a personal keris, on display. In fact, I can very clearly recall a discussion between some gentlemen I used to know (all have passed now) in Solo during the 1980's who were debating the morality of putting keris on display. Some of these men were of the opinion that it was quite OK to display keris, provided that the keris displayed were not keris that a person regarded as his personal property. Others maintained that the only time a keris should be shown to other than close, trusted friends was when that keris was being offered for sale. But others thought that apart from being morally wrong to display keris that were in one's custody, it was an act of extremely poor taste to engage in any act of display, be that display of keris or any other object. To these men it was just plain bad manners, indicative of a person who had no personal standards, or who "was not yet Javanese", ie, one who behaved like a child. So --- yes personal choice, and we all have our own standards.

5th January 2023, 07:29 PM	#2
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	I have a bit digressing question about personal keris for our fellow forum member Alan. On keeping a personal keris private, does this include the secrecy of the dhapur/pamor type of the particular keris and the naming (Kiyai X and Kyai Y) of the keris? If the dhapur is a secret, I would imagine that a keris with dhapur X will never be named Kyai X. Or is it considered OK? I have seen a list of kraton pusaka and some of the pusakas are named Kyai Sangkelat (for example), does this means that the keris is dhapur sangkelat or could the keris be of a different dhapur than the name suggests?

5th January 2023, 09:11 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,989	Rasdan, I cannot give a definite, factual response to that question, all I know for certain is that amongst the people who were close friends & associates of PP, and amongst some older people whom I know well, there are a couple of things that should not be done:- 1) no open display of a personal keris to strangers 2) no display of personal belongings, wealth, or self ever; one should always appear to be less than what one really is; the idea behind this is, I think, that if a person is truly a force to be reckoned with, that will be obvious to all, no matter what the eyes might see of the person concerned. None of this gets down to specifics or regulated instructions, it is all part of an overall pattern of behaviour. Here is a little story, personal experience. About 30 years ago I was invited to a wedding dinner. It was the marriage of an Indonesian relative to the son of an Indonesian gentleman who had made his wealth through timber concessions and had then diversified into manufacturing & tourist accommodation. The family was one of the wealthiest in Indonesia at that time. As seems to be customary for a lot of Indonesians who have one foot in Indonesia & one foot in some other country, this couple did not have a single wedding, they had several, a couple in Indonesia in different locations, a couple in Australia, one in Sydney, one in Melbourne, I attended the Sydney one. At the wedding dinner, the father, a gentleman of about 70, weighing no more than about 60kg & standing no more than about 5'2" tall, was wearing a badly fitting, crumpled, dusty, worn, blue pinstripe suit. His watch was a black plastic Casio. No personal jewellery, not even a wedding ring. His wife looked as if she had spent the entire day before the dinner in Sydney's most talented beautician's premises, she wore a simple black frock that I was later told she had ordered from her regular supplier in Paris. She wore only one piece of jewellery, a simple pendent:- the chain was gold and about as thick as my little finger, the pendent itself was a single diamond, about the size of a large pigeon egg. Was the father of the bride a powerful man? Well, by himself nobody would take the slightest notice of him, but in company with his wife anybody with half a brain would know to step very carefully indeed. In Javanese society statements are never made directly, one needs to be able to understand that which is not spoken, that which is not obvious. One speaks by not speaking.