The meaning of the tikel alis

jagabuwana · 3rd January 2023, 10:57 PM

Thank you for looking into that, Alan. Yes there's a lot of text in there regarding the keris that would be interesting to me. I'll see if I can find a BI translation online.

For those interested, the digitised text can be found at the following link (which is safe). The relevant section is under chapter "235. Jurudêmung".

>>https://www.sastra.org/kisah-cerita-dan-kronikal/serat-centhini/962-centhini-kamajaya-1985-91-761-jilid-03-pupuh-224-238<<

jagabuwana · 3rd January 2023, 11:07 PM

Incidentally Alan, this has brought me to a question regarding learning about the keris and the Javanese tangguh system.

Centhini and texts like it list things like tangguh and give brief descriptions about their features. If the keris is a keraton art, and Centhini (if I'm not mistaken) a compilation of texts written under keraton auspices, is it valuable towards a student learning and understanding the keris?

I ask because you have mentioned more than once on this forum that this is not possible without personal tuition from someone qualified to teach, with good keris in hand to examine and refer to. I can see how this would be the best way, maybe the only way to truly learn, so my question is mainly about the role and value of texts like Centhini.

A. G. Maisey · 4th January 2023, 12:08 AM

Thanks for the Centhini link Jaga, I've copied that and put it on file, but I doubt I'll ever do anything with it.

The problem with Javanese, or at least a problem, there are many, is that it is what linguists call a "non-standardised language".

It was originally written in various non-roman scripts, when it was romanised it was not romanised in a single standard form, but apart from this, when a native speaker uses his own language he alters words and syntax.

Somebody --- it might have been Robson --- once commented that a Javanese person uses his language as if it were his own personal possession, a bit like Humpty Dumpty:-

"it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

a person who has been born Javanese and who is living in a fully Javanese environment will have not the slightest difficulty in understanding anything that is spoken to him in his own language, but because spoken inflections as well as body language are missing from the written word, he might not as easily understand clearly something in text.

I do have access to people who are native speakers of Javanese, but their competence varies, and although they are native speakers the Javanese dialect they speak might be only one of several in which they can communicate, and they are likely to be fluent in dialects other than Javanese dialects, as well as BI, Dutch, & English.

As for useful writings in Javanese that involve the keris, Centhini or anything else, how useful they might be depends upon the aspect of the keris that is being dealt with. If the writing focuses on philosophical interpretations, or perhaps on using the keris as a method of teaching, or of providing advice, these writings might not be of much use to somebody who is only concerned with the physical aspects of the keris.

A. G. Maisey · 4th January 2023, 12:30 AM

Jaga, in my opinion the tangguh system is a system of belief that was developed to provide a more or less consistent approach to the classification & appraisal of certain items of value(ie, keris).

However, there is no overall consistency in the structure of the tangguh systems --- there is more than one.

I was taught the system that was the one in use in the Surakarta Karaton, and the Boworoso Tosan Aji Keris Study Society, and in Solo in general during the period from late colonial era until 1995, my teacher passed away in 1995 & I do not know if the system I was taught is still unchanged to today. I think it is still pretty much the same, but all the people who contributed to my understanding have passed away, and I am not a part of the new generation of keris literate people.

I think that perhaps the most useful way to approach the idea of tangguh, for somebody who lives outside Central Jawa, and who is a collector or student of the keris, is to understand how the system is structured and how it is applied, but not to try to apply it.

Again, my opinion, other opinions may vary, Centhini and other similar texts are all valuable foundation information. I have often said that we cannot understand the keris in the absence of having an understanding of the related culture & society. These older traditional texts will assist in gaining that essential Javanese Worldview.

3rd January 2023, 10:57 PM	#1
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	Thank you for looking into that, Alan. Yes there's a lot of text in there regarding the keris that would be interesting to me. I'll see if I can find a BI translation online. For those interested, the digitised text can be found at the following link (which is safe). The relevant section is under chapter "235. Jurudêmung". >>https://www.sastra.org/kisah-cerita-dan-kronikal/serat-centhini/962-centhini-kamajaya-1985-91-761-jilid-03-pupuh-224-238<<

3rd January 2023, 11:07 PM	#2
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	Incidentally Alan, this has brought me to a question regarding learning about the keris and the Javanese tangguh system. Centhini and texts like it list things like tangguh and give brief descriptions about their features. If the keris is a keraton art, and Centhini (if I'm not mistaken) a compilation of texts written under keraton auspices, is it valuable towards a student learning and understanding the keris? I ask because you have mentioned more than once on this forum that this is not possible without personal tuition from someone qualified to teach, with good keris in hand to examine and refer to. I can see how this would be the best way, maybe the only way to truly learn, so my question is mainly about the role and value of texts like Centhini.

4th January 2023, 12:08 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Thanks for the Centhini link Jaga, I've copied that and put it on file, but I doubt I'll ever do anything with it. The problem with Javanese, or at least a problem, there are many, is that it is what linguists call a "non-standardised language". It was originally written in various non-roman scripts, when it was romanised it was not romanised in a single standard form, but apart from this, when a native speaker uses his own language he alters words and syntax. Somebody --- it might have been Robson --- once commented that a Javanese person uses his language as if it were his own personal possession, a bit like Humpty Dumpty:- "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." a person who has been born Javanese and who is living in a fully Javanese environment will have not the slightest difficulty in understanding anything that is spoken to him in his own language, but because spoken inflections as well as body language are missing from the written word, he might not as easily understand clearly something in text. I do have access to people who are native speakers of Javanese, but their competence varies, and although they are native speakers the Javanese dialect they speak might be only one of several in which they can communicate, and they are likely to be fluent in dialects other than Javanese dialects, as well as BI, Dutch, & English. As for useful writings in Javanese that involve the keris, Centhini or anything else, how useful they might be depends upon the aspect of the keris that is being dealt with. If the writing focuses on philosophical interpretations, or perhaps on using the keris as a method of teaching, or of providing advice, these writings might not be of much use to somebody who is only concerned with the physical aspects of the keris.

4th January 2023, 12:30 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Jaga, in my opinion the tangguh system is a system of belief that was developed to provide a more or less consistent approach to the classification & appraisal of certain items of value(ie, keris). However, there is no overall consistency in the structure of the tangguh systems --- there is more than one. I was taught the system that was the one in use in the Surakarta Karaton, and the Boworoso Tosan Aji Keris Study Society, and in Solo in general during the period from late colonial era until 1995, my teacher passed away in 1995 & I do not know if the system I was taught is still unchanged to today. I think it is still pretty much the same, but all the people who contributed to my understanding have passed away, and I am not a part of the new generation of keris literate people. I think that perhaps the most useful way to approach the idea of tangguh, for somebody who lives outside Central Jawa, and who is a collector or student of the keris, is to understand how the system is structured and how it is applied, but not to try to apply it. Again, my opinion, other opinions may vary, Centhini and other similar texts are all valuable foundation information. I have often said that we cannot understand the keris in the absence of having an understanding of the related culture & society. These older traditional texts will assist in gaining that essential Javanese Worldview.