Keris Jawa?

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your response Gustav.

So in "The Javanese Keris" Groneman states that he commissioned the five keris, but in Heger's report Heger states that Prince Pakualam actually did the commissioning.

Thank you for this clarification Gustav.

I guess the Heger report is not available in English?

In respect of "long last luk", Gustav, I think you mean "long point"? and yes, all these keris do in fact have a long point, but as I tried to point out, that point is a long point from the Surakarta perspective, the fact that it is typical for Karyodikromo, simply strengthens the possibility that Karyodikromo was perhaps from the Godean school. He had to come from somewhere, and Godean --- a district in Ngayogyakarta --- is very close to the Pakualamaman, perhaps in past times it was under the administration of the Pakualamanan.

Thank you for advising that the keris on P.233 has been attributed to Karyodikromo by the museum which holds it.

Gustav, I do not for one moment doubt your assurances that Groneman invariably was referring to Karyodikromo when he used the terms "the empu" or "our empu", I assume you do have some sort of evidence to support your assurance?

Since Groneman was clearly using at least one other maker attached to the Pakualamanan , it would be really nice if we could have some sort of evidence as to whom he was writing about when he failed to mention a name. Perhaps you have access to some unpublished, or obscure reports written by Groneman?

Gustav, I feel that in your last paragraph you are being far too hard on yourself. In my opinion you have gained an enormous amount of keris knowledge & keris related knowledge simply by the diligent examination of published material, whether on-line or in hard copy. I have come at this subject over a 70 or so year period, and my efforts have cost me a couple of small fortunes, no education comes free, yes, I have covered ground that believe would now be impossible to cover. But you have come at the subject from a very different angle and have used different sources and within the restrictions under which you have been forced to work, you also have also covered a lot of ground. Don't be hard on yourself, you should be quite pleased with the progress you have achieved.

[A. G. Maisey]

Rasdan

I agree with everything you have written Rasdan, and when it gets right down to it, you have set forth the the whole problem of giving the keris shown in Post #1 a classification:- it lacks a sufficient balance of indicators that would permit it to be placed in any broad classification.

I cannot say in even broad terms where it is from, and since I was taught that we achieve an opinion in respect of classification by eliminating all the examples that have features which preclude them from consideration, I cannot give an opinion where this keris might be from, nor can I give an opinion on where it might not be from.

Guesses I can do, opinions I cannot.

You're right about the Mataram classification, there is a multitude of sub-classifications for Mataram.

In my opinion you are also right about classification & quality:- we do not need to have an applicable tangguh classification to have quality in a keris. The two concepts differ.

[rasdan]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Rasdan

I agree with everything you have written Rasdan, and when it gets right down to it, you have set forth the the whole problem of giving the keris shown in Post #1 a classification:- it lacks a sufficient balance of indicators that would permit it to be placed in any broad classification.

I cannot say in even broad terms where it is from, and since I was taught that we achieve an opinion in respect of classification by eliminating all the examples that have features which preclude them from consideration, I cannot give an opinion where this keris might be from, nor can I give an opinion on where it might not be from.

Guesses I can do, opinions I cannot.

You're right about the Mataram classification, there is a multitude of sub-classifications for Mataram.

In my opinion you are also right about classification & quality:- we do not need to have an applicable tangguh classification to have quality in a keris. The two concepts differ.

Yes Alan, and then there are kerisses that is obviously not very high quality but is still appealing to me. Keris can be confusing at times.

[A. G. Maisey]

Once again Rasdan, you're dead right.

I have some keris that I believe any self respecting collector would not consider for one moment including in his collection.

But these are keris that for one reason or another I would not consider parting with.

I don't think this attitude is confusing, it is a matter of feeling, as opposed to rational judgement.

[Gustav]

Alan, thank you again for your very kind words. I must say though, that my Keris studies have extended beyond material available online or printed for some time already.

With the five Keris, Groneman was involved as middleman and Prince Pakualam did the commission, because Karyodikromo was subject of Pakualaman, a court empu. The Keris were made for an Austrian Museum and paid by Dr. Heger, Head of a Departement of that museum, and is in collection of that museum since arrival.

No english translation, but the translation of that citation is quite precise.

Regarding long point - the last Luk of Karyodikromo is typically very short and mostly doesn't have a perceptible concave curve on Gandhik side. For example, like on this 13 Luk Keris by Karyodikromo. Is it common to call a short last Luk a "long point" in Surakarta? Thank you for clarification.

This Keris on p. 233 wasn't attributed to Karyodikromo by museum in Leiden. It was commissioned to Karyodikromo through Groneman for Count O. van Limburg Stirum, and thus attributed to Karyodikromo by Groneman himself.


On matter of
Since Groneman was clearly using at least one other maker attached to the Pakualamanan

The other maker, Empu Supo Taruno, wasn't in any kind attached to Pakualaman. In fact, Groneman writes on Fig 15, "it was forged by the self employed Empu Supo Taruno". There was only one court Empu at that time, Karyodikromo. Groneman worked closely only with Karyodikromo, and when he commissioned something from another Empu, he did mention it.

[David]

Gentlemen. I have been following this interesting discussion very closely and want to thank both of you for keeping the tone essentially civil.
However, i am not blind to subtle sarcasm. Please don't insult my intelligence by claiming none exists in both your posts. So again, please, reel it in. As i stated, i am finding this discussion very interesting and don't want to have to shut down the conversation.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, you have issued warnings several times now, so I can only assume that you do indeed detect sarcasm in my writing.

I am very sorry that this is so.

It seems Gustav also thought I was being sarcastic at one point, so I offer my apologies to him.

My informal writing --- and in this Forum I do write in an informal style --- is pretty much the same as the way I speak. I admit that I have sometimes been accused of having a sharp tongue, so I have reviewed my contributions to this conversation between Gustav & myself to try to detect some objectionable remarks, not only from me, but also from Gustav.

I'm afraid I can find nothing at all objectionable in Gustav's posts. Yes, he does tend to be a little too positive in his writing style, yes, he does tend to assume a bit too much, but that is his style, there is nothing objectionable there. Not from my perspective in any case.

I have met Gustav and spent time with him. He is a well mannered, civil person, very astute and a careful observer. His contributions to this Forum indicate that he has applied himself well to gaining information from the sources available to him.

I can find nothing at all that I would consider to be objectionable in any of Gustav's posts to this thread.

In respect of my own posts to this thread.

In my post #15, I admit, I was less than sweet, I was getting bored with the presentation of what I thought of as irrelevant material, and with the almost total disregard for what I had already stated. Apart from that I posted those remarks at a time when I might have been well advised to write nothing and to keep my mouth shut. Between 24 December & 1 January, the area where I live is not a real great place to be --- not for locals anyway, but the visitors love it. Too much.

My post #15 was not respectful, and I do regret verging on behaving in an unacceptable fashion.

I have carefully reviewed my recent posts, #31 & #34 and I can detect not the slightest touch of sarcasm in these posts. By my own standards, standards that I employ in my professional writing, these posts are flat, unemotional and from my perspective, factual.

I most sincerely regret that you find both my style and Gustav's style to be other than civil exchanges between two people whom I do regard as civil, straightforward people.

Since you do not like our style David, perhaps it might be best to close this thread immediately.

If David does close this thread Gustav you are welcome to continue discussion with me through email if you wish. If you want my current email address please PM me.