18th Century Fleur de Lis mark on sword blades

CutlassCollector · 15th December 2022, 08:35 PM

Hi Jim, I hesitate to post this as it is perhaps not as early as you are looking for.

It is a pre 1804 cutlass with a FDL on each side of the blade and a broad arrow mark and a stylised H on the guard. Hollier?

Regards, CC

Jim McDougall · 15th December 2022, 10:26 PM

WOW! yeah, THAT is exactly what I hoped to find, and perfect that it is on a double disc cutlass is outstanding. This is I believe evidence that a good number of blades were coming into England and possibly Scotland from France.
There were Solingen makers in the Alsace area (before Klingenthal) and I think St.Etienne and Tulle were making blades (not sure of details) but it has been suggested the fluer de lis may have been a 'state' mark from the arsenal in Paris.

In Nuemann, the numbers of French hangers with blades of this type with FDL on blades is compelling. In Campbell's book on the swords from Culloden, it is noted the FDL is often found on British blades of these times.

Thank you so much CC!!

CutlassCollector · 16th December 2022, 02:40 PM

It is surprising how similar the blade of the cutlass is to the one on the Basket hilt British cavalry sword you posted. Supports the batch theory I guess.

But would the French have sold blades to Britain? Scotland, yes, but the cutlass has the broad arrow indicating government ownership and it seems unlikely that the French would sell arms to the manufacturers of their worst enemy or the Brits buy them.

The two countries were at war for most of the 18th century so perhaps it is more likely that they were manufactured at Solingen or another place using the FDL.

CC.

Jim McDougall · 16th December 2022, 04:53 PM

True, there is a perception of France and England always being at war, however there were strong affinities between them most of the time, despite the warring issues.
In London there was a 'street' (more of an alley) called loosely 'fluer de lis' street, where in the early to mid 18th c. there were French merchants of sundry materials who had collected together in these 'business districts'. I have not found great detail, however it seems that the Huguenots escaping the religious persecution had been coming in since late 16th c.By 1720s these enclaves became more developed.

In a reference (passim, which I still cannot relocate) it was stated that in these areas, Fluer de Lis street in particular, bundles of sword blades were sold to cutlers. In England, there were few blade makers, even by 1770s there were only three in England. The primary suppliers of swords were cutlers, those who assembled swords with acquired blades and either they or other vendors supplied components such as hilts and scabbards.

While we have always presumed Solingen was the source of blades in both Scotland and England, there were blades ('Alsace') known as well, such as these with FDL. As French locations were with many Solingen smiths (much as with Hounslow and Shotley were in England) the blades were often very much the same as German.

The British fascination with French culture, fashion etc. always prevailed and often through the Royal house as well as the more covert Masonic ties, was seemingly a 'thing' even in times of war.

Here is a 'tubular grip' cutlass which as with yours prevailed from the period Hollier seems to have created the DD hilt (late 1720s) through the 18thc
By the type of blade this may be 1740s-50s but unmarked.

The basket hilt, though the guard attached 'in the Scottish manner' is clearly for British army forces and of 'dragoon' form, though the blade is relatively short for a horseman. Note the FDL on the blade, suggesting in the same 1740s period as the cutlass.

M ELEY · 17th December 2022, 10:03 AM

Arrgghh! You guys are killing me with these amazing early cutlasses! Sorry, nothing to add on the possible 'French connection', but it is an interesting theory. I've got to get me one of these!!

Jim McDougall · 17th December 2022, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Arrgghh! You guys are killing me with these amazing early cutlasses! Sorry, nothing to add on the possible 'French connection', but it is an interesting theory. I've got to get me one of these!!

Thank you Capn!!! no addition needed, your presence here is just the right salt in the air adding to this discussion

CC, I think that H on the guard might just be a marking convention used by Hollier, but I havent found specific reference to verify.

CutlassCollector · 17th December 2022, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Capn!!! no addition needed, your presence here is just the right salt in the air adding to this discussion

CC, I think that H on the guard might just be a marking convention used by Hollier, but I havent found specific reference to verify.

Hi Jim,

I have been looking as well and have not found another H like that but I did find this link which will take you to another Hollier with the full name used as a mark. Interesting comparison between Brit cutlasses and the US Starr 1808. Looks earlier but makes me think H may not be Hollier after all.

https://americansocietyofarmscollect...DS-vol-123.pdf

Hey Capn, this cutlass not in my collection unfortunately but a lot nearer you. The pictures from a dealer in the US - his private collection, so not yet for sale!

CC

15th December 2022, 08:35 PM	#1
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 343	Hi Jim, I hesitate to post this as it is perhaps not as early as you are looking for. It is a pre 1804 cutlass with a FDL on each side of the blade and a broad arrow mark and a stylised H on the guard. Hollier? Regards, CC Attached Images

16th December 2022, 04:53 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	True, there is a perception of France and England always being at war, however there were strong affinities between them most of the time, despite the warring issues. In London there was a 'street' (more of an alley) called loosely 'fluer de lis' street, where in the early to mid 18th c. there were French merchants of sundry materials who had collected together in these 'business districts'. I have not found great detail, however it seems that the Huguenots escaping the religious persecution had been coming in since late 16th c.By 1720s these enclaves became more developed. In a reference (passim, which I still cannot relocate) it was stated that in these areas, Fluer de Lis street in particular, bundles of sword blades were sold to cutlers. In England, there were few blade makers, even by 1770s there were only three in England. The primary suppliers of swords were cutlers, those who assembled swords with acquired blades and either they or other vendors supplied components such as hilts and scabbards. While we have always presumed Solingen was the source of blades in both Scotland and England, there were blades ('Alsace') known as well, such as these with FDL. As French locations were with many Solingen smiths (much as with Hounslow and Shotley were in England) the blades were often very much the same as German. The British fascination with French culture, fashion etc. always prevailed and often through the Royal house as well as the more covert Masonic ties, was seemingly a 'thing' even in times of war. Here is a 'tubular grip' cutlass which as with yours prevailed from the period Hollier seems to have created the DD hilt (late 1720s) through the 18thc By the type of blade this may be 1740s-50s but unmarked. The basket hilt, though the guard attached 'in the Scottish manner' is clearly for British army forces and of 'dragoon' form, though the blade is relatively short for a horseman. Note the FDL on the blade, suggesting in the same 1740s period as the cutlass. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th December 2022 at 05:10 PM.

15th December 2022, 10:26 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	WOW! yeah, THAT is exactly what I hoped to find, and perfect that it is on a double disc cutlass is outstanding. This is I believe evidence that a good number of blades were coming into England and possibly Scotland from France. There were Solingen makers in the Alsace area (before Klingenthal) and I think St.Etienne and Tulle were making blades (not sure of details) but it has been suggested the fluer de lis may have been a 'state' mark from the arsenal in Paris. In Nuemann, the numbers of French hangers with blades of this type with FDL on blades is compelling. In Campbell's book on the swords from Culloden, it is noted the FDL is often found on British blades of these times. Thank you so much CC!!

16th December 2022, 02:40 PM	#3
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 343	It is surprising how similar the blade of the cutlass is to the one on the Basket hilt British cavalry sword you posted. Supports the batch theory I guess. But would the French have sold blades to Britain? Scotland, yes, but the cutlass has the broad arrow indicating government ownership and it seems unlikely that the French would sell arms to the manufacturers of their worst enemy or the Brits buy them. The two countries were at war for most of the 18th century so perhaps it is more likely that they were manufactured at Solingen or another place using the FDL. CC.

17th December 2022, 10:03 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Arrgghh! You guys are killing me with these amazing early cutlasses! Sorry, nothing to add on the possible 'French connection', but it is an interesting theory. I've got to get me one of these!!