THE BORDER REIVERS.

Peter Hudson · 27th November 2022, 11:06 PM

Border Reivers Weapons See http://reivers.info/reiver-clothing-armour-weapons/

M ELEY · 28th November 2022, 12:38 AM

Of course! I wasn't thinking about the terrain at all, was I? So the two-handed claidheigm da laim was out. I had heard mention of a 'winjer' before and found the attached information (or at least picture). Looks like an Italian-sytle falchion! Very interesting! Thank you for those excellent references as well. Interesting how the one page mentions the main gauche. Is this weapon associted with this region at that time? The parrying dagger was an excellent implement, I just wasn't sure if there was a preferred use for it over the Scotch dirk or ballock.

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/347410558741707302/

Peter Hudson · 28th November 2022, 02:29 AM

Indeed the terrain would have decided what sort of tactics were used thus the light cavalry style must have been used as dictated by the hills and mountains. Reivers were not all horse born and anyway the ability to ride into battle and skirmish on foot as required would have been normal...I see no reason to go against the idea of the left hand dagger and sword working in unison where required and where available the possible inclusion of firearms...I think sword blades would have been foreign and marked Andrea Ferrera and or with hogsback marks as well as occasional Solingen wolf marks. Hounslow Hangers could also be expected...

Peter Hudson.

Jim McDougall · 28th November 2022, 01:05 PM

In the varying terrains of these regions the tactics would be pretty dependent on conditions and type of terrain as Peter has noted. It seems another of the most deterring factors in mounted attack has often been boggy or sodden ground from extensive rain. In cases of some of the celebrated 'charges' known in history, the 'hell for leather' sort of charge simply did not happen as depicted in embellished accounts, and much of the event was simply a trot or canter.

The interesting horses described as common to the Reivers seem to be forms of pony, smaller than war horses, but effective transportation. It would seem that in many cases, dismounted action as done by dragoons would have been common. Still the favored use of the couched lance would indicate considerable mounted action took place.

It is good to be getting more into the weapons used by the Reivers, and as would be well expected, there would have been a considerable range of forms. As noted, the lance/spear was much favored as a simple and readily available weapon, while swords and daggers of well known 16th century forms were at hand as well. There was some presence of firearms, but limited.

The 'whinger' (sic) was basically a short saber/hanger/cutlass or whatever vernacular term might be chosen. As Mark noted, these were typically the kinds of short heavier blades that were curved and resembled the Italian storta, whose North European counterpart was the 'dusagge'.

Many of these had developed basket type hilts such as those known as 'Sinclair sabers' which Whitelaw (1902); Jacobsen (1940) and Blair (1981) have thought were likely an influence on what became the Scottish basket hilt (in these times termed the 'Irish' hilt, collectively =Gaelic).

Along with these were the full length swords known as 'katzbalgers' as used by landsknechts (German mercenaries in Europe) which often had the same types of developed guards (many were with simple figure 8 guard) in their hilts which were of course included in these influences.

It does seem that in certain cases, there were cases of rapiers in use, and in the 'smoke and fire' analogy, surely the 'main gauche' (left hand dagger)were present with them.

More common were the daggers known as 'ballock' daggers colloquially (for the obvious anatomical resemblance in the hilt shape) but which became known also as the 'dudgeon' dagger, for the wood of the box tree used in the hilt. These were the precursor for the Scottish dirk, again showing the 'Reiver' factor in the development of these Scottish weapon forms along with the famed basket hilt.

The term 'dudgeon' in its foreboding connotation seems to be another term whose place with the origins of various terms have come from the Reivers.
Shakespeare uses the term in MacBeth, "..on thy blade and dudgeon gouts of blood".
The term dudgeon refers to the 'handle' (of that wood), in those days hilt referred only to the guard of the sword.

Peter Hudson · 28th November 2022, 02:36 PM

Here is a superb Reference https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3200...-h/32005-h.htm

Peter Hudson · 28th November 2022, 05:24 PM

There are some excellent video presentations as under;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r10C...VuDnM&index=13

Here everything is covered and readers can chose which sections of The Border Reivers to study. Other important video stories are vital in the Mediaeval history of England Ireland and Scotland.

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

Jim McDougall · 28th November 2022, 05:46 PM

An interesting item I found as I continue researching aspects of the Reivers topic,refers to the term 'marches'.

I discovered that 'marches' refer to the regional divisions of border territories indicating the 'border' was not just a simple line of division between Scotland and England, but a well buffered expanse that seems akin to a DMZ.

Peter Hudson · 28th November 2022, 06:08 PM

Readers could be mistaken into thinking that Moss Troopers were some sort of extension or follow on from The Border Reivers but that is not the case...From https://carrotherscarruthers.wordpre...moss-troopers/ I QUOTE"

MOSS TROOPS
The term ‘Moss trooper’ is often, but quite erroneously applied to the Anglo-Scots border reiver of the sixteenth century. In fact there was an important difference between them in that most border reivers were otherwise respectable farmers and landowners, who from time to time set forth from their castles to steal livestock from their neighbours – ideally but not invariably on the other side of the border.

Moss troopers on the other hand were landless bandits, usually operating in wandering gangs, lurking in the mosses and maintaining themselves by highway robbery and petty thievery as well as cattle rustling. Initially the moss troopers who preyed on Cromwell’s stragglers and dispatch riders were just such bandits. But once they began to be organised under the command of regular officers such as Augustine (probably Captain Augustine Hoffman, formerly of Leslie’s Horse), and Patrick Gordon, alias ‘Steilhand the Mosser’, they developed into first-class light cavalry." UNQUOTE.

urbanspaceman · 30th November 2022, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Of course! I wasn't thinking about the terrain at all, was I? So the two-handed claidheigm da laim was out. I had heard mention of a 'winjer' before and found the attached information (or at least picture). Looks like an Italian-sytle falchion! Very interesting! Thank you for those excellent references as well. Interesting how the one page mentions the main gauche. Is this weapon associted with this region at that time? The parrying dagger was an excellent implement, I just wasn't sure if there was a preferred use for it over the Scotch dirk or ballock.

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/347410558741707302/

I note the incredible image of a whinger is on Pinterest courtesy of Mr Moffatt
https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl.../?view=classic
I am so looking forward to visiting his museum

Peter Hudson · 2nd December 2022, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I note the incredible image of a whinger is on Pinterest courtesy of Mr Moffatt
https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl.../?view=classic
I am so looking forward to visiting his museum

Hello Keith, Yes he has some amazing gear there and hopefully some will be displayed at his Museum in Hawick when it opens...
Regards,
Peter Hudson.

Peter Hudson · 2nd December 2022, 04:48 PM

Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) | German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle.

Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/

urbanspaceman · 2nd December 2022, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) | German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle.

Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/

This is great stuff Peter. The website above is superb. Seems we are not the only folk interested.

Peter Hudson · 3rd December 2022, 05:30 PM

Hello Keith, Clearly Mr Brian Moffat has had a huge struggle to win political support for a museum at Hawick (pronounced Hoik) on the subject of Border Reivers. Something similar transpired over Shotley Bridge which has nothing of note on their concreted over history...Most people I spoke with in Shotley had no idea about it although one or two had heard of THe Lampton Worm

...For Mr Moffat to be now poised to open a Border Reivers Museum has done wonders and that will inspire the Border Reivers story to be learned by all ...I would bet that it is absent from the History teaching syllabus in this region. Once it has opened we should drive up there and have a look.

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

Jim McDougall · 3rd December 2022, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Hudson

Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) | German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle.

Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/

This is really interesting Peter! and I had never heard of this 'Lockerbie Lick'! I always wonder at the many localized idioms used to describe these sword fighting 'tricks'. It seems the Scots had very distinct moves and measures they employed in fencing, and these are well described by Donald McBane in "The Expert Swordsmans Companion"(1728) and the "Scots Fencing Master" by Sir William Hope (1687).

The Spaniards in their mysterious, geometric 'Spanish fight' called destreza, used many unique 'tricks' which were regarded as formidable, if not deadly, despite the derision with which this elaborate style was often regarded.

28th November 2022, 12:38 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Of course! I wasn't thinking about the terrain at all, was I? So the two-handed claidheigm da laim was out. I had heard mention of a 'winjer' before and found the attached information (or at least picture). Looks like an Italian-sytle falchion! Very interesting! Thank you for those excellent references as well. Interesting how the one page mentions the main gauche. Is this weapon associted with this region at that time? The parrying dagger was an excellent implement, I just wasn't sure if there was a preferred use for it over the Scotch dirk or ballock. https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/347410558741707302/ Last edited by M ELEY; 28th November 2022 at 01:27 AM.

28th November 2022, 01:05 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	In the varying terrains of these regions the tactics would be pretty dependent on conditions and type of terrain as Peter has noted. It seems another of the most deterring factors in mounted attack has often been boggy or sodden ground from extensive rain. In cases of some of the celebrated 'charges' known in history, the 'hell for leather' sort of charge simply did not happen as depicted in embellished accounts, and much of the event was simply a trot or canter. The interesting horses described as common to the Reivers seem to be forms of pony, smaller than war horses, but effective transportation. It would seem that in many cases, dismounted action as done by dragoons would have been common. Still the favored use of the couched lance would indicate considerable mounted action took place. It is good to be getting more into the weapons used by the Reivers, and as would be well expected, there would have been a considerable range of forms. As noted, the lance/spear was much favored as a simple and readily available weapon, while swords and daggers of well known 16th century forms were at hand as well. There was some presence of firearms, but limited. The 'whinger' (sic) was basically a short saber/hanger/cutlass or whatever vernacular term might be chosen. As Mark noted, these were typically the kinds of short heavier blades that were curved and resembled the Italian storta, whose North European counterpart was the 'dusagge'. Many of these had developed basket type hilts such as those known as 'Sinclair sabers' which Whitelaw (1902); Jacobsen (1940) and Blair (1981) have thought were likely an influence on what became the Scottish basket hilt (in these times termed the 'Irish' hilt, collectively =Gaelic). Along with these were the full length swords known as 'katzbalgers' as used by landsknechts (German mercenaries in Europe) which often had the same types of developed guards (many were with simple figure 8 guard) in their hilts which were of course included in these influences. It does seem that in certain cases, there were cases of rapiers in use, and in the 'smoke and fire' analogy, surely the 'main gauche' (left hand dagger)were present with them. More common were the daggers known as 'ballock' daggers colloquially (for the obvious anatomical resemblance in the hilt shape) but which became known also as the 'dudgeon' dagger, for the wood of the box tree used in the hilt. These were the precursor for the Scottish dirk, again showing the 'Reiver' factor in the development of these Scottish weapon forms along with the famed basket hilt. The term 'dudgeon' in its foreboding connotation seems to be another term whose place with the origins of various terms have come from the Reivers. Shakespeare uses the term in MacBeth, "..on thy blade and dudgeon gouts of blood". The term dudgeon refers to the 'handle' (of that wood), in those days hilt referred only to the guard of the sword. Attached Images

2nd December 2022, 04:48 PM	#11
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 320	Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) \| German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle. Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/ Last edited by Peter Hudson; 2nd December 2022 at 05:00 PM.

3rd December 2022, 05:30 PM	#13
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 320	Hello Keith, Clearly Mr Brian Moffat has had a huge struggle to win political support for a museum at Hawick (pronounced Hoik) on the subject of Border Reivers. Something similar transpired over Shotley Bridge which has nothing of note on their concreted over history...Most people I spoke with in Shotley had no idea about it although one or two had heard of THe Lampton Worm...For Mr Moffat to be now poised to open a Border Reivers Museum has done wonders and that will inspire the Border Reivers story to be learned by all ...I would bet that it is absent from the History teaching syllabus in this region. Once it has opened we should drive up there and have a look. Regards, Peter Hudson.

27th November 2022, 11:06 PM	#1
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 320	Border Reivers Weapons See http://reivers.info/reiver-clothing-armour-weapons/

28th November 2022, 02:29 AM	#3
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 320	Indeed the terrain would have decided what sort of tactics were used thus the light cavalry style must have been used as dictated by the hills and mountains. Reivers were not all horse born and anyway the ability to ride into battle and skirmish on foot as required would have been normal...I see no reason to go against the idea of the left hand dagger and sword working in unison where required and where available the possible inclusion of firearms...I think sword blades would have been foreign and marked Andrea Ferrera and or with hogsback marks as well as occasional Solingen wolf marks. Hounslow Hangers could also be expected... Peter Hudson.

28th November 2022, 02:36 PM	#5
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 320	Here is a superb Reference https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3200...-h/32005-h.htm

28th November 2022, 05:24 PM	#6
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 320	There are some excellent video presentations as under; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r10C...VuDnM&index=13 Here everything is covered and readers can chose which sections of The Border Reivers to study. Other important video stories are vital in the Mediaeval history of England Ireland and Scotland. Regards, Peter Hudson.

28th November 2022, 05:46 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	An interesting item I found as I continue researching aspects of the Reivers topic,refers to the term 'marches'. I discovered that 'marches' refer to the regional divisions of border territories indicating the 'border' was not just a simple line of division between Scotland and England, but a well buffered expanse that seems akin to a DMZ.

28th November 2022, 06:08 PM	#8
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 320	Readers could be mistaken into thinking that Moss Troopers were some sort of extension or follow on from The Border Reivers but that is not the case...From https://carrotherscarruthers.wordpre...moss-troopers/ I QUOTE" MOSS TROOPS The term ‘Moss trooper’ is often, but quite erroneously applied to the Anglo-Scots border reiver of the sixteenth century. In fact there was an important difference between them in that most border reivers were otherwise respectable farmers and landowners, who from time to time set forth from their castles to steal livestock from their neighbours – ideally but not invariably on the other side of the border. Moss troopers on the other hand were landless bandits, usually operating in wandering gangs, lurking in the mosses and maintaining themselves by highway robbery and petty thievery as well as cattle rustling. Initially the moss troopers who preyed on Cromwell’s stragglers and dispatch riders were just such bandits. But once they began to be organised under the command of regular officers such as Augustine (probably Captain Augustine Hoffman, formerly of Leslie’s Horse), and Patrick Gordon, alias ‘Steilhand the Mosser’, they developed into first-class light cavalry." UNQUOTE.