THE BORDER REIVERS.

Jim McDougall · 27th November 2022, 07:31 PM

With the 'assembled' nature of these organized groups of 'reivers', while there was a typical range of weaponry and dress, there were no regulations or standards, so 'anything was possible'. Typically on horseback, those mounted would of course not used the huge 'two hand' swords, and these men would have used whatever swords were available. As has been noted however, the most typical weapon was the couched lance. In the 16th century, which seem the period most attended historically, there were many forms of European fighting swords, most of them of types known to be used by the 'landsknechts', German mercenary forces.

The two hander was of course indeed used through the 16th century in Scotland in many cases, but mostly incidentally, as it was not a widely apportioned weapon. As in Europe, these huge swords had been decreasing in general use, and in Scotland, if I understand correctly, many of these had their blades cut down and were used in 'basket hilts'. Perhaps this may have been why the term 'claymore' was used through the 19th c. for the basket hilts, or maybe just a generalized term by then.

In a way I think of the Reivers in the manner of Jesse James during the Civil War, and with Quantrills Raiders. After the war, he and many of these soldiers simply continued their ways though they were now 'outlaws' . When they could no longer operate without impunity, they simply diffused into their own respective clans and no longer operated in the organized groups of before.

Peter Hudson · 27th November 2022, 10:54 PM

Thank you Jim... It appears that Border Reivers probably adopted their style from Hobilars...thus I define the Hobilar from ENGLISH INFANTRYMAN c.1320
An extract from Armies of the Middle Ages, Volume 1
by Ian Heath and I QUOTE"

HOBILAR

The term Hobilar first appeared in 1296, when it was applied to 260 light horsemen raised from the Anglo-Irish feudal estates for service in Scotland under Edward I. The word itself evolved from the native pony or ‘hobby’, 12-14 hands tall, that such a horseman rode, this word probably evolving in turn from the Gaelic obann, meaning quick or nimble. English, as opposed to Anglo-Irish, hobilars first appeared in 1300, closely based on their Irish counterparts but probably on the whole riding larger horses. They were basically mounted infantrymen and were the progenitors of (and in due course were steadily replaced by) the mounted archers of later armies, some of whom were even at first called hobilar-archers, such as were those assigned the duty of guarding the coast in 1364. Hobilars could be found both in magnates’ retinues and in shire levies, and were probably the same as armati.
In 1335 their equipment was laid down as horse, aketon or (coat-of-) plates (though writs of 1359 specify an haubergeon), a bascinet or palet (an unidentified type of helmet that could be of either iron or leather), gorget (either a quilted hood like that of 14 or else an aventail), iron gauntlets, sword, long knife and spear. The horse seems to have usually been valued at about 40s".UNQUOTE.

The region spoken of i.e. The shires of Scotland encompass the Borders of both countries and which formed their ancestral homes before the Union in about 1603... In a logical twist the retentionof the word Borders needed to be sorted thus it was banned from use...there could be no border thus that was that!

Border Reivers had a similar horse called a Galloway bred for its toughness and ability in mountains and cold weather. When the system moved against the Border Reivers it did so across the board and everything they were associated with including their horses was banned and outlawed on pain of death, imprisonment and or transportation. To make matters worse a huge retraining program was instigated to reteach religion to the people. ......Draconian laws meant that men were executed without trial...massive fines were imposed and even Moss Troopers those men trying to escape this system of strict laws and who had run away to Border Rieiver country...among the Marches/wastelands were mercilessly hunted down.

What is quite difficult to build among this disintegration is how the Border Reivers... as a renamed Northern Horse were able to join the English Army ORBAT as crack Cavalry and fight in foreign wars on the continent as well as survive mass transportation to places like The Apalachians and Ireland...often with little chance of returning home.

I hope to show some artwork of their weapons going forward...

Regards
Peter Hudson

Peter Hudson · 27th November 2022, 11:06 PM

Border Reivers Weapons See http://reivers.info/reiver-clothing-armour-weapons/

M ELEY · 28th November 2022, 12:38 AM

Of course! I wasn't thinking about the terrain at all, was I? So the two-handed claidheigm da laim was out. I had heard mention of a 'winjer' before and found the attached information (or at least picture). Looks like an Italian-sytle falchion! Very interesting! Thank you for those excellent references as well. Interesting how the one page mentions the main gauche. Is this weapon associted with this region at that time? The parrying dagger was an excellent implement, I just wasn't sure if there was a preferred use for it over the Scotch dirk or ballock.

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/347410558741707302/

Peter Hudson · 28th November 2022, 02:29 AM

Indeed the terrain would have decided what sort of tactics were used thus the light cavalry style must have been used as dictated by the hills and mountains. Reivers were not all horse born and anyway the ability to ride into battle and skirmish on foot as required would have been normal...I see no reason to go against the idea of the left hand dagger and sword working in unison where required and where available the possible inclusion of firearms...I think sword blades would have been foreign and marked Andrea Ferrera and or with hogsback marks as well as occasional Solingen wolf marks. Hounslow Hangers could also be expected...

Peter Hudson.

Jim McDougall · 28th November 2022, 01:05 PM

In the varying terrains of these regions the tactics would be pretty dependent on conditions and type of terrain as Peter has noted. It seems another of the most deterring factors in mounted attack has often been boggy or sodden ground from extensive rain. In cases of some of the celebrated 'charges' known in history, the 'hell for leather' sort of charge simply did not happen as depicted in embellished accounts, and much of the event was simply a trot or canter.

The interesting horses described as common to the Reivers seem to be forms of pony, smaller than war horses, but effective transportation. It would seem that in many cases, dismounted action as done by dragoons would have been common. Still the favored use of the couched lance would indicate considerable mounted action took place.

It is good to be getting more into the weapons used by the Reivers, and as would be well expected, there would have been a considerable range of forms. As noted, the lance/spear was much favored as a simple and readily available weapon, while swords and daggers of well known 16th century forms were at hand as well. There was some presence of firearms, but limited.

The 'whinger' (sic) was basically a short saber/hanger/cutlass or whatever vernacular term might be chosen. As Mark noted, these were typically the kinds of short heavier blades that were curved and resembled the Italian storta, whose North European counterpart was the 'dusagge'.

Many of these had developed basket type hilts such as those known as 'Sinclair sabers' which Whitelaw (1902); Jacobsen (1940) and Blair (1981) have thought were likely an influence on what became the Scottish basket hilt (in these times termed the 'Irish' hilt, collectively =Gaelic).

Along with these were the full length swords known as 'katzbalgers' as used by landsknechts (German mercenaries in Europe) which often had the same types of developed guards (many were with simple figure 8 guard) in their hilts which were of course included in these influences.

It does seem that in certain cases, there were cases of rapiers in use, and in the 'smoke and fire' analogy, surely the 'main gauche' (left hand dagger)were present with them.

More common were the daggers known as 'ballock' daggers colloquially (for the obvious anatomical resemblance in the hilt shape) but which became known also as the 'dudgeon' dagger, for the wood of the box tree used in the hilt. These were the precursor for the Scottish dirk, again showing the 'Reiver' factor in the development of these Scottish weapon forms along with the famed basket hilt.

The term 'dudgeon' in its foreboding connotation seems to be another term whose place with the origins of various terms have come from the Reivers.
Shakespeare uses the term in MacBeth, "..on thy blade and dudgeon gouts of blood".
The term dudgeon refers to the 'handle' (of that wood), in those days hilt referred only to the guard of the sword.

Peter Hudson · 28th November 2022, 02:36 PM

Here is a superb Reference https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3200...-h/32005-h.htm

urbanspaceman · 30th November 2022, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Of course! I wasn't thinking about the terrain at all, was I? So the two-handed claidheigm da laim was out. I had heard mention of a 'winjer' before and found the attached information (or at least picture). Looks like an Italian-sytle falchion! Very interesting! Thank you for those excellent references as well. Interesting how the one page mentions the main gauche. Is this weapon associted with this region at that time? The parrying dagger was an excellent implement, I just wasn't sure if there was a preferred use for it over the Scotch dirk or ballock.

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/347410558741707302/

I note the incredible image of a whinger is on Pinterest courtesy of Mr Moffatt
https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl.../?view=classic
I am so looking forward to visiting his museum

Peter Hudson · 2nd December 2022, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I note the incredible image of a whinger is on Pinterest courtesy of Mr Moffatt
https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl.../?view=classic
I am so looking forward to visiting his museum

Hello Keith, Yes he has some amazing gear there and hopefully some will be displayed at his Museum in Hawick when it opens...
Regards,
Peter Hudson.

Peter Hudson · 2nd December 2022, 04:48 PM

Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) | German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle.

Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/

27th November 2022, 07:31 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,823	With the 'assembled' nature of these organized groups of 'reivers', while there was a typical range of weaponry and dress, there were no regulations or standards, so 'anything was possible'. Typically on horseback, those mounted would of course not used the huge 'two hand' swords, and these men would have used whatever swords were available. As has been noted however, the most typical weapon was the couched lance. In the 16th century, which seem the period most attended historically, there were many forms of European fighting swords, most of them of types known to be used by the 'landsknechts', German mercenary forces. The two hander was of course indeed used through the 16th century in Scotland in many cases, but mostly incidentally, as it was not a widely apportioned weapon. As in Europe, these huge swords had been decreasing in general use, and in Scotland, if I understand correctly, many of these had their blades cut down and were used in 'basket hilts'. Perhaps this may have been why the term 'claymore' was used through the 19th c. for the basket hilts, or maybe just a generalized term by then. In a way I think of the Reivers in the manner of Jesse James during the Civil War, and with Quantrills Raiders. After the war, he and many of these soldiers simply continued their ways though they were now 'outlaws' . When they could no longer operate without impunity, they simply diffused into their own respective clans and no longer operated in the organized groups of before. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 27th November 2022 at 07:47 PM.

28th November 2022, 12:38 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,082	Of course! I wasn't thinking about the terrain at all, was I? So the two-handed claidheigm da laim was out. I had heard mention of a 'winjer' before and found the attached information (or at least picture). Looks like an Italian-sytle falchion! Very interesting! Thank you for those excellent references as well. Interesting how the one page mentions the main gauche. Is this weapon associted with this region at that time? The parrying dagger was an excellent implement, I just wasn't sure if there was a preferred use for it over the Scotch dirk or ballock. https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/347410558741707302/ Last edited by M ELEY; 28th November 2022 at 01:27 AM.

28th November 2022, 01:05 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,823	In the varying terrains of these regions the tactics would be pretty dependent on conditions and type of terrain as Peter has noted. It seems another of the most deterring factors in mounted attack has often been boggy or sodden ground from extensive rain. In cases of some of the celebrated 'charges' known in history, the 'hell for leather' sort of charge simply did not happen as depicted in embellished accounts, and much of the event was simply a trot or canter. The interesting horses described as common to the Reivers seem to be forms of pony, smaller than war horses, but effective transportation. It would seem that in many cases, dismounted action as done by dragoons would have been common. Still the favored use of the couched lance would indicate considerable mounted action took place. It is good to be getting more into the weapons used by the Reivers, and as would be well expected, there would have been a considerable range of forms. As noted, the lance/spear was much favored as a simple and readily available weapon, while swords and daggers of well known 16th century forms were at hand as well. There was some presence of firearms, but limited. The 'whinger' (sic) was basically a short saber/hanger/cutlass or whatever vernacular term might be chosen. As Mark noted, these were typically the kinds of short heavier blades that were curved and resembled the Italian storta, whose North European counterpart was the 'dusagge'. Many of these had developed basket type hilts such as those known as 'Sinclair sabers' which Whitelaw (1902); Jacobsen (1940) and Blair (1981) have thought were likely an influence on what became the Scottish basket hilt (in these times termed the 'Irish' hilt, collectively =Gaelic). Along with these were the full length swords known as 'katzbalgers' as used by landsknechts (German mercenaries in Europe) which often had the same types of developed guards (many were with simple figure 8 guard) in their hilts which were of course included in these influences. It does seem that in certain cases, there were cases of rapiers in use, and in the 'smoke and fire' analogy, surely the 'main gauche' (left hand dagger)were present with them. More common were the daggers known as 'ballock' daggers colloquially (for the obvious anatomical resemblance in the hilt shape) but which became known also as the 'dudgeon' dagger, for the wood of the box tree used in the hilt. These were the precursor for the Scottish dirk, again showing the 'Reiver' factor in the development of these Scottish weapon forms along with the famed basket hilt. The term 'dudgeon' in its foreboding connotation seems to be another term whose place with the origins of various terms have come from the Reivers. Shakespeare uses the term in MacBeth, "..on thy blade and dudgeon gouts of blood". The term dudgeon refers to the 'handle' (of that wood), in those days hilt referred only to the guard of the sword. Attached Images

2nd December 2022, 04:48 PM	#10
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 313	Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) \| German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle. Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/ Last edited by Peter Hudson; 2nd December 2022 at 05:00 PM.

27th November 2022, 10:54 PM	#2
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 313	Thank you Jim... It appears that Border Reivers probably adopted their style from Hobilars...thus I define the Hobilar from ENGLISH INFANTRYMAN c.1320 An extract from Armies of the Middle Ages, Volume 1 by Ian Heath and I QUOTE" HOBILAR The term Hobilar first appeared in 1296, when it was applied to 260 light horsemen raised from the Anglo-Irish feudal estates for service in Scotland under Edward I. The word itself evolved from the native pony or ‘hobby’, 12-14 hands tall, that such a horseman rode, this word probably evolving in turn from the Gaelic obann, meaning quick or nimble. English, as opposed to Anglo-Irish, hobilars first appeared in 1300, closely based on their Irish counterparts but probably on the whole riding larger horses. They were basically mounted infantrymen and were the progenitors of (and in due course were steadily replaced by) the mounted archers of later armies, some of whom were even at first called hobilar-archers, such as were those assigned the duty of guarding the coast in 1364. Hobilars could be found both in magnates’ retinues and in shire levies, and were probably the same as armati. In 1335 their equipment was laid down as horse, aketon or (coat-of-) plates (though writs of 1359 specify an haubergeon), a bascinet or palet (an unidentified type of helmet that could be of either iron or leather), gorget (either a quilted hood like that of 14 or else an aventail), iron gauntlets, sword, long knife and spear. The horse seems to have usually been valued at about 40s".UNQUOTE. The region spoken of i.e. The shires of Scotland encompass the Borders of both countries and which formed their ancestral homes before the Union in about 1603... In a logical twist the retentionof the word Borders needed to be sorted thus it was banned from use...there could be no border thus that was that! Border Reivers had a similar horse called a Galloway bred for its toughness and ability in mountains and cold weather. When the system moved against the Border Reivers it did so across the board and everything they were associated with including their horses was banned and outlawed on pain of death, imprisonment and or transportation. To make matters worse a huge retraining program was instigated to reteach religion to the people. ......Draconian laws meant that men were executed without trial...massive fines were imposed and even Moss Troopers those men trying to escape this system of strict laws and who had run away to Border Rieiver country...among the Marches/wastelands were mercilessly hunted down. What is quite difficult to build among this disintegration is how the Border Reivers... as a renamed Northern Horse were able to join the English Army ORBAT as crack Cavalry and fight in foreign wars on the continent as well as survive mass transportation to places like The Apalachians and Ireland...often with little chance of returning home. I hope to show some artwork of their weapons going forward... Regards Peter Hudson

27th November 2022, 11:06 PM	#3
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 313	Border Reivers Weapons See http://reivers.info/reiver-clothing-armour-weapons/

28th November 2022, 02:29 AM	#5
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 313	Indeed the terrain would have decided what sort of tactics were used thus the light cavalry style must have been used as dictated by the hills and mountains. Reivers were not all horse born and anyway the ability to ride into battle and skirmish on foot as required would have been normal...I see no reason to go against the idea of the left hand dagger and sword working in unison where required and where available the possible inclusion of firearms...I think sword blades would have been foreign and marked Andrea Ferrera and or with hogsback marks as well as occasional Solingen wolf marks. Hounslow Hangers could also be expected... Peter Hudson.

28th November 2022, 02:36 PM	#7
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 313	Here is a superb Reference https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3200...-h/32005-h.htm