Silver Stocked Kubur Pistol

rickystl · 6th June 2015, 06:37 PM

Hello all. Well, another week, another gun posted.

This is one of my favorite Kubur pistols in my collection. At first, I thought this might be a celina or ledenica pistol made for the Montenegrin market. Or Northern Albanian/Greek pistol. But the top of the barrel has the marking of what I recall is the Albanian national bird crest. If so, this may have been built in a Northern Albanian shop. The stock is made of one piece of silver, with a long single silver barrel band. It has the typical Balkan/Albanian style lock with a very faint makers mark. Lock in good working order. And you can see the typical "false ramrod" impersonation.
Any other possible origins for this pistol? Anyway, picture heavy. Hope you enjoy. And thanks for looking.
Rick.

rickystl · 6th June 2015, 06:39 PM

SOME MORE PICS.....

rickystl · 6th June 2015, 06:41 PM

STILL MORE........

rickystl · 6th June 2015, 06:42 PM

LAST ONES...........

Kubur · 7th June 2015, 10:04 AM

Hi Rick,

Difficult to add something, just beautiful, I like this model too.
I have the cousin (the rat-tail) that I''ll try to post today.
For the origins, nothing more to add. Again I rely on Elgood (Greek arms).
For the "Arms of Arabia", be patient like me, sometimes you can find it at a descent price.

For the "faint makers mark" on the lock, if you lock closely you'll see that they are symbols of wind and clouds. You have also this symbolism on some blades (cassaignard). Wind represents powder and I think it's just perfect on a lock that brings light or storm. Mmm probably some members will think that I'm crazy, but I'll post some drawings later...

Best,
Kubur

Kubur · 7th June 2015, 10:20 AM

A last point, you have something not common on this kind of gun: a silver protection to avoid been hurt with the movement of the hammer. I saw that many times with the Caucasian pistols but the protection was just a leather piece.
Kubur

BANDOOK · 7th June 2015, 11:39 AM

RICK THATS ANOTHER MASTERPICE FROM YOUR COLLECTION,AMAZING

Kubur · 7th June 2015, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Rick,

For the "faint makers mark" on the lock, if you lock closely you'll see that they are symbols of wind and clouds. You have also this symbolism on some blades (cassaignard). Wind represents powder and I think it's just perfect on a lock that brings light or storm. Mmm probably some members will think that I'm crazy, but I'll post some drawings later...

Best,
Kubur

sorry read power not powder!

rickystl · 7th June 2015, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Rick,

Difficult to add something, just beautiful, I like this model too.
I have the cousin (the rat-tail) that I''ll try to post today.
For the origins, nothing more to add. Again I rely on Elgood (Greek arms).
For the "Arms of Arabia", be patient like me, sometimes you can find it at a descent price.

For the "faint makers mark" on the lock, if you lock closely you'll see that they are symbols of wind and clouds. You have also this symbolism on some blades (cassaignard). Wind represents powder and I think it's just perfect on a lock that brings light or storm. Mmm probably some members will think that I'm crazy, but I'll post some drawings later...

Best,
Kubur

Hi Kubur.
Thanks for your comments. And thanks for the information: Wind and clouds, wind = power, etc. Hmmmm.......interesting. I had no idea.
Since you mentioned Rat Tail, I'll make a future Post of a trio of Albanian brass stocked pistols showing the three different butt stocks/grips usually encountered on these pistols. It will be interesting to view the comparisons.
Rick.

rickystl · 7th June 2015, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

A last point, you have something not common on this kind of gun: a silver protection to avoid been hurt with the movement of the hammer. I saw that many times with the Caucasian pistols but the protection was just a leather piece.
Kubur

Hi Kubur.
Interesting observation. Actually, my two Albanian brass stocked pistols, with miquelet locks, both have this feature. Though undecorated and not as pronounced as on this pistol. Which may be more evidence of this pistol having been made in a Northern Albanian shop.
The leather ones on the Caucasian pistols I've seen appear to be made of boiled leather to make it somewhat stiff. But it was probably effective.
Rick.

rickystl · 7th June 2015, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

RICK THATS ANOTHER MASTERPICE FROM YOUR COLLECTION,AMAZING

Hi Bandook.
Thanks for the kind comments. You are most generous.
The lock needs a simple cleaning, and some more cleaning inside the barrel. Easy enough. That cleaning patch posted above was the first I ran down the barrel. Notice the black powder residue. Very dirty bore. But bronze brushes, time, and lots of cleaning patches will fix that.

But since these photos were taken the silver stock is now a little darker. This is just normal silver tarnish. But how to go about correctly cleaning the stock? I don't want to lose any patina. But in this case most of what we normally call patina is just tarnish. I have a some Hagerty silver polish in a spray can. But I don't think that's the way to go (?). Especially trying to wipe off in those small creveces on the stock. Hmmm

Something that could remove the tarnish, even scrubbing with a soft nylon brush, that would remove the tarnish without leaving a "polished" look. Of course, even a polished look will eventually darken again. Do you guys have any suggestions? Thanks.
Rick.

BANDOOK · 8th June 2015, 08:13 AM

RICK YOU HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB SO FAR,AM NOT GOOD AT RETORATIONS AT ALL,AS AM SCARED TO BREAK OR DESTROY THE PATINA.
THIS PISTOL IS NOT AN EASY ONE AS IT HAS VERY HIGH LEVEL OF DECORATION \ENGRAVINGS .I LIKE SILVER TO GET A LITTLE OXIDISED AND GIVE THE NATURAL LOOK.MUST TELL YOURS IS IN EXCELLENT CONDITION FOR ITS AGE.IS THIS EARLY 19TH CENTURY??

Kubur · 8th June 2015, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Kubur.
Interesting observation. Actually, my two Albanian brass stocked pistols, with miquelet locks, both have this feature. Though undecorated and not as pronounced as on this pistol. Which may be more evidence of this pistol having been made in a Northern Albanian shop.
The leather ones on the Caucasian pistols I've seen appear to be made of boiled leather to make it somewhat stiff. But it was probably effective.
Rick.

Forget what I said about the feature, I was reading Elgood this morning and they all have this feature (for the type that you presented). Elgood dates them from 1830ties, I guess it's a rough dating.

Kubur · 8th June 2015, 09:16 AM

Here a Cassaignard blade, they were extremely popular in Morocco for the nimcha. Note the symbols: the moon, the sun, the armed arm in the clouds/wind.

BANDOOK · 8th June 2015, 10:57 PM

RICK AND KUBUR AM POSTING A PICTURE FROM MY FRIEND MICHAEL COLLECTION IN BELGIUM,PLEASE NOTE THE 2 ALBANIAN MIQUELET PISTOLS AT THE BOTTOM,CHEERS

Kubur · 8th June 2015, 11:03 PM

Rrraaarh I''ll die, so beautifull and very nice display...with two hookah in the corner!

rickystl · 15th June 2015, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Here a Cassaignard blade, they were extremely popular in Morocco for the nimcha. Note the symbols: the moon, the sun, the armed arm in the clouds/wind.

Hi Kubur. What a beautiful blade etching!! Just great! And I see what you mean. Thanks, Rick.

rickystl · 15th June 2015, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

RICK AND KUBUR AM POSTING A PICTURE FROM MY FRIEND MICHAEL COLLECTION IN BELGIUM,PLEASE NOTE THE 2 ALBANIAN MIQUELET PISTOLS AT THE BOTTOM,CHEERS

Hi Bandook.
Oh my

What a beautiful collection and display. Makes me feel embarresed how cluttered my dedicated room is.

Rick.

cyten · 9th November 2022, 12:40 PM

Sorry to resurrect another dead thread, but to answer the question of what your pistols provenance is, according to the Historical Museum of Serbia, this pistol is referred to as a Skadarka and made in modern day Shkoder, Albania

Ian · 14th November 2022, 01:13 AM

cyten,

Thanks for clarifying this one. We have Archives for just such comments! Updating and amplifying information in old posts is always appreciated. No such thing as a "dead thread" here.

Ian.

Battara · 15th November 2022, 04:35 AM

Here, Here!

rickystl · 15th November 2022, 08:35 PM

Thank you Cyten. So noted.

Rick

serdar · 12th April 2023, 12:38 AM

Actualy, that silver flintlock pistol is a Ledenica Kubura, it is mainly used in Montenegro, Serbia, Croatia and some in Albania and Greece. It is manufactured in Montenegro city Kotor, Maybe some in Skadar, and some in Bosnia. It is not called Skadarka, in museums they get things wrong many times.
Allso it is not called rat tailed gun, rat tailed gun is a Šilja Kubura or brass bodied pointed end pistol mainly made in Albania.
Ledenica is sometimes allso manufactured in Dubrovnik.
Another notable gun is Bokeljka, made in Boka Kotorska, and in Dubrovnik.
But Ledenica or gun in this tread is mainly from Montenegro and Serbia.
Cheers.

6th June 2015, 06:37 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,629	Silver Stocked Kubur Pistol Hello all. Well, another week, another gun posted. This is one of my favorite Kubur pistols in my collection. At first, I thought this might be a celina or ledenica pistol made for the Montenegrin market. Or Northern Albanian/Greek pistol. But the top of the barrel has the marking of what I recall is the Albanian national bird crest. If so, this may have been built in a Northern Albanian shop. The stock is made of one piece of silver, with a long single silver barrel band. It has the typical Balkan/Albanian style lock with a very faint makers mark. Lock in good working order. And you can see the typical "false ramrod" impersonation. Any other possible origins for this pistol? Anyway, picture heavy. Hope you enjoy. And thanks for looking. Rick. Attached Images

6th June 2015, 06:39 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,629	SOME MORE PICS..... Attached Images

6th June 2015, 06:41 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,629	STILL MORE........ Attached Images

6th June 2015, 06:42 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,629	LAST ONES........... Attached Images

7th June 2015, 10:20 AM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	A last point, you have something not common on this kind of gun: a silver protection to avoid been hurt with the movement of the hammer. I saw that many times with the Caucasian pistols but the protection was just a leather piece. Kubur Attached Images

7th June 2015, 10:04 AM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Rick, Difficult to add something, just beautiful, I like this model too. I have the cousin (the rat-tail) that I''ll try to post today. For the origins, nothing more to add. Again I rely on Elgood (Greek arms). For the "Arms of Arabia", be patient like me, sometimes you can find it at a descent price. For the "faint makers mark" on the lock, if you lock closely you'll see that they are symbols of wind and clouds. You have also this symbolism on some blades (cassaignard). Wind represents powder and I think it's just perfect on a lock that brings light or storm. Mmm probably some members will think that I'm crazy, but I'll post some drawings later... Best, Kubur

7th June 2015, 11:39 AM	#7
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	RICK THATS ANOTHER MASTERPICE FROM YOUR COLLECTION,AMAZING

8th June 2015, 08:13 AM	#12
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	RICK YOU HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB SO FAR,AM NOT GOOD AT RETORATIONS AT ALL,AS AM SCARED TO BREAK OR DESTROY THE PATINA. THIS PISTOL IS NOT AN EASY ONE AS IT HAS VERY HIGH LEVEL OF DECORATION \ENGRAVINGS .I LIKE SILVER TO GET A LITTLE OXIDISED AND GIVE THE NATURAL LOOK.MUST TELL YOURS IS IN EXCELLENT CONDITION FOR ITS AGE.IS THIS EARLY 19TH CENTURY??

8th June 2015, 09:16 AM	#14
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Here a Cassaignard blade, they were extremely popular in Morocco for the nimcha. Note the symbols: the moon, the sun, the armed arm in the clouds/wind. Attached Images

8th June 2015, 10:57 PM	#15
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	RICK AND KUBUR AM POSTING A PICTURE FROM MY FRIEND MICHAEL COLLECTION IN BELGIUM,PLEASE NOTE THE 2 ALBANIAN MIQUELET PISTOLS AT THE BOTTOM,CHEERS Attached Images

8th June 2015, 11:03 PM	#16
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Rrraaarh I''ll die, so beautifull and very nice display...with two hookah in the corner!

9th November 2022, 12:40 PM	#19
cyten Member Join Date: May 2020 Location: Caucasus Posts: 93	Sorry to resurrect another dead thread, but to answer the question of what your pistols provenance is, according to the Historical Museum of Serbia, this pistol is referred to as a Skadarka and made in modern day Shkoder, Albania

14th November 2022, 01:13 AM	#20
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,333	Thanks for the additional info cyten, Thanks for clarifying this one. We have Archives for just such comments! Updating and amplifying information in old posts is always appreciated. No such thing as a "dead thread" here. Ian.

15th November 2022, 04:35 AM	#21
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,257	Here, Here!

15th November 2022, 08:35 PM	#22
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,629	Thank you Cyten. So noted. Rick

12th April 2023, 12:38 AM	#23
serdar Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 85	Actualy, that silver flintlock pistol is a Ledenica Kubura, it is mainly used in Montenegro, Serbia, Croatia and some in Albania and Greece. It is manufactured in Montenegro city Kotor, Maybe some in Skadar, and some in Bosnia. It is not called Skadarka, in museums they get things wrong many times. Allso it is not called rat tailed gun, rat tailed gun is a Šilja Kubura or brass bodied pointed end pistol mainly made in Albania. Ledenica is sometimes allso manufactured in Dubrovnik. Another notable gun is Bokeljka, made in Boka Kotorska, and in Dubrovnik. But Ledenica or gun in this tread is mainly from Montenegro and Serbia. Cheers.