Strange indian hanger with (pseudo?) genoese marks

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2022, 07:49 PM

It has always been my understanding that a sword is viewed being held upright, not downward as when worn. However looking at the vegetal pattern on the throat it does seem the leaves are pointing upward so would be inverted if sword viewed upright. This type of blade is not as far as I have known been produced in India, even in the modern reproduction market. It is known that the 'sickle' mark often (even almost typically) occurs on the blades of North Indian sabers known as paluoar and Afghan associated, but these are not of the same character as this.

The thistle as seen in the floral pierced pattern on the chape is of course typically regarded as Scottish. The black background against silver is of course mindful of the bidri metal work in India, so bring drawn to that association seems well placed. I will say that there was a degree of Scottish presence in India during the Raj in the 18th c. so there is some commemorative potential in some degree, but this seemingly Austrian blade is it seems misplaced in that notion.

Richard G · 25th September 2022, 10:36 PM

I'm not sure I fully agree with you here, Jim.
Sword blades would normally be read with the point held high, but not necessarily other parts of a sword. The British 1803 Infantry sabre, for example, had a cypher on the knuckle guard that is upside down if the sword point is held aloft. Also, I can't think of any situation when a scabbard would be held with the chape aloft, so it makes sense for decoration to be orientated to be viewed with the chape down.
Best wishes
Richard

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2022, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

I'm not sure I fully agree with you here, Jim.
Sword blades would normally be read with the point held high, but not necessarily other parts of a sword. The British 1803 Infantry sabre, for example, had a cypher on the knuckle guard that is upside down if the sword point is held aloft. Also, I can't think of any situation when a scabbard would be held with the chape aloft, so it makes sense for decoration to be orientated to be viewed with the chape down.
Best wishes
Richard

I was thinking that, as I saw the throat oriented different than the chape as the leaves would be pointed downward on the throat as held upright. It is confusing as many discussions over the years on blade decoration claimed held upright was proper to read inscriptions, motif.....but not sure that was entirely consistent. Still I am not sure the orientation of the scabbard motif would be held as a determining factor. Interesting in discussion though!
Well made point on the 1803.,

Gonzoadler · 26th September 2022, 08:06 AM

I want to say that this is an interesting discussion here. I made some additional pichtures of the silver parts, maybe they can help.

Tim Simmons · 26th September 2022, 08:27 AM

The decoration looks like Indian version of Art Nouveau . Would not be surprised if it was a hunting hanger for a British officer or high ranking bod of some kind.

25th September 2022, 07:49 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,668	It has always been my understanding that a sword is viewed being held upright, not downward as when worn. However looking at the vegetal pattern on the throat it does seem the leaves are pointing upward so would be inverted if sword viewed upright. This type of blade is not as far as I have known been produced in India, even in the modern reproduction market. It is known that the 'sickle' mark often (even almost typically) occurs on the blades of North Indian sabers known as paluoar and Afghan associated, but these are not of the same character as this. The thistle as seen in the floral pierced pattern on the chape is of course typically regarded as Scottish. The black background against silver is of course mindful of the bidri metal work in India, so bring drawn to that association seems well placed. I will say that there was a degree of Scottish presence in India during the Raj in the 18th c. so there is some commemorative potential in some degree, but this seemingly Austrian blade is it seems misplaced in that notion. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 25th September 2022 at 08:19 PM.

26th September 2022, 08:06 AM	#4
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 273	I want to say that this is an interesting discussion here. I made some additional pichtures of the silver parts, maybe they can help. Attached Images

25th September 2022, 10:36 PM	#2
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 415	I'm not sure I fully agree with you here, Jim. Sword blades would normally be read with the point held high, but not necessarily other parts of a sword. The British 1803 Infantry sabre, for example, had a cypher on the knuckle guard that is upside down if the sword point is held aloft. Also, I can't think of any situation when a scabbard would be held with the chape aloft, so it makes sense for decoration to be orientated to be viewed with the chape down. Best wishes Richard

26th September 2022, 08:27 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	The decoration looks like Indian version of Art Nouveau . Would not be surprised if it was a hunting hanger for a British officer or high ranking bod of some kind.