Golden Dots...

S.Al-Anizi · 15th June 2006, 01:38 AM

Hi,

I bring up the issue of these small golden dots found on early pre-islamic swords, and early islamic ones. I have only seen these dots explained very briefly in Dr.Uncal Yucel's "Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths". I am asking here to learn more about these gold filled holes on a blade. What did these holes reperesent and signify? Did these specify an area of manufacture?

I recently saw a Nejdi Saif on ebay with a gold dot on both sides of the hilt towards the forte! I have also seen many Yemeni Saifs a.k.a zanzibar nimchas with these golden dots. Do these things represent a continuation of that tradition? If so, what does this represent anyway? What does Elgood say about this, if at all? I still didnt get my copy of his book, but its on the way.

Thanks in Advance for any Input.

Rivkin · 15th June 2006, 04:09 AM

Fugh, unlike Mr. McDougall I am way too lazy to actually find quotes, but I have on my hard drive translation from atrak of a mamluk manual that insists that holes filled with gold is a mark of supreme Yemeni produced swords (??). Interestingly it is the only manual that was putting quite a big emphesis on these swords rather than hindu swords.

Gold dots actually had a very long history - don't they appear later on Timurid sword as a sign of Amir (3 dots) ? In Timurid was not it suppsed to be a alluasion to Timurid's tamga which in its turn was an old mongolic symbol that supposedly originated from heaven's representation in China ?

Interestingly I have seen gold dots even on XVIIth century iranian swords.

S.Al-Anizi · 15th June 2006, 12:57 PM

I too, though that these swords were somewhat related to high quality yemeni blades, paramount according to Al-Kindi, but still these marks are found northern arabian sabers, syrian swords, and as you say Rivkin, on Persian swords as well. They must have originated somewhere in southern arabia, and must have meant something. I still remember one day Mumtaz Baber on SFI along time ago said something that these gold filled holes signify some armoury in southern India, I cant recall what he said exactly.

Check this out:

Medieval Damascene Sword with gold filled holes

15th June 2006, 01:38 AM	#1
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Golden Dots... Hi, I bring up the issue of these small golden dots found on early pre-islamic swords, and early islamic ones. I have only seen these dots explained very briefly in Dr.Uncal Yucel's "Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths". I am asking here to learn more about these gold filled holes on a blade. What did these holes reperesent and signify? Did these specify an area of manufacture? I recently saw a Nejdi Saif on ebay with a gold dot on both sides of the hilt towards the forte! I have also seen many Yemeni Saifs a.k.a zanzibar nimchas with these golden dots. Do these things represent a continuation of that tradition? If so, what does this represent anyway? What does Elgood say about this, if at all? I still didnt get my copy of his book, but its on the way. Thanks in Advance for any Input.

15th June 2006, 04:09 AM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Fugh, unlike Mr. McDougall I am way too lazy to actually find quotes, but I have on my hard drive translation from atrak of a mamluk manual that insists that holes filled with gold is a mark of supreme Yemeni produced swords (??). Interestingly it is the only manual that was putting quite a big emphesis on these swords rather than hindu swords. Gold dots actually had a very long history - don't they appear later on Timurid sword as a sign of Amir (3 dots) ? In Timurid was not it suppsed to be a alluasion to Timurid's tamga which in its turn was an old mongolic symbol that supposedly originated from heaven's representation in China ? Interestingly I have seen gold dots even on XVIIth century iranian swords.

15th June 2006, 12:57 PM	#3
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	I too, though that these swords were somewhat related to high quality yemeni blades, paramount according to Al-Kindi, but still these marks are found northern arabian sabers, syrian swords, and as you say Rivkin, on Persian swords as well. They must have originated somewhere in southern arabia, and must have meant something. I still remember one day Mumtaz Baber on SFI along time ago said something that these gold filled holes signify some armoury in southern India, I cant recall what he said exactly. Check this out: Medieval Damascene Sword with gold filled holes