What is the shortest blade you all have encountered on a shashka?

Jim McDougall · 30th August 2022, 03:02 AM

Well, I found it!
It is the 1897 reference from Budapest (Vichy) who refers to these as 'Transcaucasian' but uses the Hungarian term for sword 'kardok'.
If you note, the pommels are similar to the Laz Bicagi I posted, as well as the straight blade example I posted (seen in Vichy far right).

It is important to note here that 'cleft pommel' does not classify a sword as a 'shashka', which is a dialectic term for sword (as often the case) which was apparently tranliterated to Russian when they adopted these forms from the Caucusus. The Russian word (I am uncertain of pronunciation) sounds like 'checker'.

These weapons have as seen, a cleft pommel, which in ethnographic forms sometimes have various elements elaborated, often as seen into exaggerated versions. The range from subtle cleft is seen to grow into the splayed pommel, and with the Lax bicagi, more of 'horns' in shape.

As these share hilt, pommel and blade shapes in variation we can presume they are from the Trebizon, Erzerum, Black Sea regions (the examples in museums I reached were collected from 1850s to 1870s)

As seen in the research over years, there have been a number of unusual perceptions of what these are and where from. One catalog arms dealer of the 80s even described these as 'Cossack yataghans'

!

I'm glad to have the opportunity to go through these old notes etc. and collectively reiterate the details on these, and the search which became quite an adventure of many years.

the bottom example appears Caucasian due to hilt work and I believe was a large dagger, not in this group, but added for the 'shashka' similarity.

Nihl · 30th August 2022, 10:12 PM

I feel as though the reason for these atypical *cough* Didi Xami *cough* mountings and blade variations is probably due to the fact they were considered to be a significant item of cultural expression/identity for the region. Similar to the many ethnic groups of the Caucasus identifying with the kindjal/qaddara as being their "national weapon", so too for transcaucasian people it seems that the didi xami was "their" weapon.

I say this, in case it isn't clear, because due to the various waves of turkish-fueled ethnic cleansing and assimilation, most people from this region seem to have forgotten about these weapons in the modern day, at least to the point where there is no longer any communication with the west in regards to their existence. I am of the opinion that these idiosyncratic yatagans come from the last attempts of these people to still make their "national weapon", recycling old bayonet and saber blades into crudely contorted vestiges of their formerly graceful sword type. The same notion goes for molding horns into forms that vaguely resemble the handles of traditional didi xami, but are missing the refined elegance that the old artisans were capable of when they were still permitted to craft the originals.

In other news, similar again to one of the examples Jim shared, I found on my computer another image of one of these neat little swords, though this one is much less decorated than the others.

PS - my term for these guys is "surmene qaddara", as I feel they match the surmene "style" the best, and in form most closely resemble the wide, single edged blade of the qaddara.

Jim McDougall · 30th August 2022, 10:42 PM

Thats another great example Nihl, and thanks for the link to the discussion with your analysis of the proper local terms for these. That is great information.
As you note, it seems by the latter 19th century, according to Triikman & Jacobsen (1941) these forms seem to have become largely set aside and apart from an occasional presence at some ceremonial event they became sort of like old WWII bayonets back in the 60s. We used to buy these for about 50 cents and they were used as handy garden tools etc. and just lying about in peoples garages.

It is amazing to see all this research which was simply stalled for so many years now being brought forward with such remarkable detail. Thank you!

David R · 31st August 2022, 09:34 PM

I will just leave this one here in the hope that it is relevant. Apologies for the poor quality pics, quick and dirty from my phone.

30th August 2022, 03:02 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Kardok, Transcaucasian yataghan Laz bicagi etc Well, I found it! It is the 1897 reference from Budapest (Vichy) who refers to these as 'Transcaucasian' but uses the Hungarian term for sword 'kardok'. If you note, the pommels are similar to the Laz Bicagi I posted, as well as the straight blade example I posted (seen in Vichy far right). It is important to note here that 'cleft pommel' does not classify a sword as a 'shashka', which is a dialectic term for sword (as often the case) which was apparently tranliterated to Russian when they adopted these forms from the Caucusus. The Russian word (I am uncertain of pronunciation) sounds like 'checker'. These weapons have as seen, a cleft pommel, which in ethnographic forms sometimes have various elements elaborated, often as seen into exaggerated versions. The range from subtle cleft is seen to grow into the splayed pommel, and with the Lax bicagi, more of 'horns' in shape. As these share hilt, pommel and blade shapes in variation we can presume they are from the Trebizon, Erzerum, Black Sea regions (the examples in museums I reached were collected from 1850s to 1870s) As seen in the research over years, there have been a number of unusual perceptions of what these are and where from. One catalog arms dealer of the 80s even described these as 'Cossack yataghans' ! I'm glad to have the opportunity to go through these old notes etc. and collectively reiterate the details on these, and the search which became quite an adventure of many years. the bottom example appears Caucasian due to hilt work and I believe was a large dagger, not in this group, but added for the 'shashka' similarity. Attached Images

30th August 2022, 10:12 PM	#2
Nihl Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 90	I feel as though the reason for these atypical cough Didi Xami cough mountings and blade variations is probably due to the fact they were considered to be a significant item of cultural expression/identity for the region. Similar to the many ethnic groups of the Caucasus identifying with the kindjal/qaddara as being their "national weapon", so too for transcaucasian people it seems that the didi xami was "their" weapon. I say this, in case it isn't clear, because due to the various waves of turkish-fueled ethnic cleansing and assimilation, most people from this region seem to have forgotten about these weapons in the modern day, at least to the point where there is no longer any communication with the west in regards to their existence. I am of the opinion that these idiosyncratic yatagans come from the last attempts of these people to still make their "national weapon", recycling old bayonet and saber blades into crudely contorted vestiges of their formerly graceful sword type. The same notion goes for molding horns into forms that vaguely resemble the handles of traditional didi xami, but are missing the refined elegance that the old artisans were capable of when they were still permitted to craft the originals. In other news, similar again to one of the examples Jim shared, I found on my computer another image of one of these neat little swords, though this one is much less decorated than the others. PS - my term for these guys is "surmene qaddara", as I feel they match the surmene "style" the best, and in form most closely resemble the wide, single edged blade of the qaddara. Attached Images

31st August 2022, 09:34 PM	#4
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	I will just leave this one here in the hope that it is relevant. Apologies for the poor quality pics, quick and dirty from my phone. Attached Images

30th August 2022, 10:42 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Thats another great example Nihl, and thanks for the link to the discussion with your analysis of the proper local terms for these. That is great information. As you note, it seems by the latter 19th century, according to Triikman & Jacobsen (1941) these forms seem to have become largely set aside and apart from an occasional presence at some ceremonial event they became sort of like old WWII bayonets back in the 60s. We used to buy these for about 50 cents and they were used as handy garden tools etc. and just lying about in peoples garages. It is amazing to see all this research which was simply stalled for so many years now being brought forward with such remarkable detail. Thank you!