Foreign Legion in the Sahara

[M ELEY]

I've always been fascinated by these guys! Thanks for starting this thread, Jim! Unfortunately, I've got nothing to offer but my own fasination the the 'Legion'. I always sort of saw them as 'mercs' but I know that term is frowned upon these days.

Cool pistol, Rick! I always found it interesting that so many French and Belgein pinfires and other pistols of this period had the lanyard ring. As I understand it (from a novice of firearms, mind you) that these were attached to a lanyard/piece of cloth or belt and secured to the wrist to prevent accidentally dropping it while on horseback?

That's a great pic, 'Nando! Note the hammer pole camp ax he is carrying (one of which many try to pass off as a boarding ax, BTW-

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks so much guys for getting this rolling!
Rick, I know little on firearms so this is great info for another pistol they likely used.
Fernando, great image of a fully packed legionaire, thank you! Carrying this much stuff must have been tough enough.....but through the desert!!! auughh!

Capn, thanks for joining in, and like you, the 'foreign legion' always rang out in my sojourns into adventure tales of the past. The 'legion' was not actually a mercenary outfit if I understand, but simply a specialized unit of the French army comprised of volunteers from virtually all countries and walks of life. The notions held in popular culture were that a man, regardless of issues he had whether outlaw, bankrupt, or any other element of issue with repute could join, under assumed name etc. and never be questioned. How true that cliche' is remains to be seen, but the idea was, a man could virtually 'disappear'. That was the premise held in the "Beau Geste" genre of 'Legion' stories.

While my interest has thus far been focused on the Legion in the Sahara, they had notable presence elsewhere, such as in Mexico in the 19th c.

[Rick]

Hi Mark,
I believe the lanyard went around the officer's neck as illustrated in this photo of an RCMP officer in dress uniform. Note that the loop goes underneath the epaulette straps.

There used to be a b+w tv show series about The Legion from the fifties that I watched as a kid.
As I recall Buster Crabbe was the lead role.

Yes, I'm old.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi Mark,
I believe the lanyard went around the officer's neck as illustrated in this photo of an RCMP officer in dress uniform. Note that the loop goes underneath the epaulette straps.

There used to be a b+w tv show series about The Legion from the fifties that I watched as a kid.
As I recall Buster Crabbe was the lead role.

Yes, I'm old.

OMG Rick!! I had forgotten about that TV series!!! Fantastic!

[Rick]

Et tu, Jim?
This was one of my favorite Saturday morning shows! lol

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

Et tu, Jim?
This was one of my favorite Saturday morning shows! lol

The best thing about collecting stuff is that it takes ya back to those times and all the adventures you dreamed of, but having the 'real thing' in hand all these years later is amazing. I hadnt guessed you and I were in the same age (era) but sure sounds like we are.

[David R]

Some time ago I posted Gras Musketoon on the ethic page, so here is a link to that short conversation. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=gras

[fernando]

How would have been a legionaire and a native infantryman (tirailleur) circa 1840.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David R

Some time ago I posted Gras Musketoon on the ethic page, so here is a link to that short conversation. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=gras

That is an amazing piece David! thank you for sharing it and the link!
It is so interesting that these situations in this desert context with the Tuaregs and other Berber tribes in the Rif have so many similarities to the American wild west. The US soldiers in forts, the American Indian tribes.....and the Indian rifles decorated in the same manner with those brass studs.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

...

That's a great pic, 'Nando! Note the hammer pole camp ax he is carrying (one of which many try to pass off as a boarding ax, BTW-

Much more interesting as a FFL arm. Boarding axes are a lot more blasé.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks for these examples, and I am inclined to agree the period is quite likely around 1900.
The French Foreign Legion was not simply an intriguing military entity of what became recognized as an elite status in its exploits and operations in the Sahara desert of Africa, but saw service in many theaters and still exists.

I think it is important to recognize here that the intention of my original post and the objective was to determine and perhaps see examples of French Foreign Legion arms used in the 19th century from its inception in 1831 to the period just about the turn of the century to just after and pre WWI.

My use of the classic novel and movies of "Beau Geste" was to add some of the colorful dimension which took the fame of this unit into exciting history. As I pointed out earlier, although the book and movies were of the 1920s and of course later, the settings for the story were much earlier, into the late 1890s to WWI, the time frame not specified.

What I was looking for is possible examples of arms such as the Chassepot 1866; later modifications including the Gras, and the bayonets used with them. .....ultimately I was hoping for marked examples to recognize these when encountered.
These weapons in this group as well as any pinfire or the M1896 Mauser semi -automatic which was apparently used by French gendarmes are well within the latter 19th century period and more the objective of this thread.

With these kinds of topics where materials and arms used in the earlier period transcend into a period outside the scope of this venue, then that would be seen as 'carry over' in my opinion and kept as necessary perspective.
The case where items, weapons or material that is notably beyond the limits set as scope in this venue and initiated as thread topics is the problem, and that is well understood.

If I may suggest that instance of 'carry over' be allowed in degree for the sake of discussion as long as the content remains just that and is clearly to augment the discussion of the in period material, I hope that will be deemed permissible.

In hopes that we can continue on course with this, I have books coming (of course and hope I can find more. As previously mentioned it seems most of the references on the Foreign Legion focus on more modern weaponry even into present times, which I think has led to the warranted concerns on the thread content here.

The Legion must have marked their weapons, and I need to see if I can find pre 1900 examples of those types I described.

[CutlassCollector]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Much more interesting as a FFL arm. Boarding axes are a lot more blasé.

That's a very hefty looking axe and looks almost like a descendant of the big Napoleonic sapper axes used for fortifications.

I also remember those boyhood films - I may even have read the book!
So great thread, Jim, I don't recall covering the Legion's weapons before and I hope some get posted that can be attributed specifically to the Legion. Do we know if they had their own designated marks?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

That's a very hefty looking axe and looks almost like a descendant of the big Napoleonic sapper axes used for fortifications.

I also remember those boyhood films - I may even have read the book!
So great thread, Jim, I don't recall covering the Legion's weapons before and I hope some get posted that can be attributed specifically to the Legion. Do we know if they had their own designated marks?

Thanks CC! If I recall as a kid, our foreign legion 'uniform' was mostly a ball cap with a towel under it to cover our necks
I really dont know if the Legion had specific unit markings for arms, but presume they did, the flaming grenade seems to have been a primary emblem or badge.
As noted, we can guess by the weapon types (i.e.Chassepot 'needle gun') so 'of the type', but rest remains to be seen.
I think most of the Chasspot and Gras rifles and bayonets fall within the period of the discussion just prior to turn of the century.

Well noted on the axe, and these probably were directly in line with those sappers axes.

[Jim McDougall]

I just posted a concurrent thread on Ethnographic recalling that over the years a number of Saharan weapons have turned up with French military blades. I am hoping to find examples of these which might have markings perhaps attributed to French Foreign Legion.
In reviewing old threads over there, I found one Moroccan dagger (genoui) which had a bayonet blade apparently from a Mannlicher-Berthier 1892, which we did not determine of FFL use, but that was unresolved.
It seems most of the French occupation and campaigns were in Algeria with some in Moroccan regions from 1831 onward through 19th c.

[fernando]

The 1832 Talabot glaive/sabre, which have equiped the FFL. As learnt from different sources.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

The 1832 Talabot glaive/sabre, which have equiped the FFL. As learnt from different sources.


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That is fantastic Fernando, thank you!
It seems like these are thebFrench swords they called 'cabbage choppers' . I had no idea these would be FFL weapons. While these swords which were basically infantry swords I believe, they were great for utility use such as constructing breastworks etc. Clearly not much use in the sands of the Sahara, but in the early years much of the campaign activity was in Algerian regions where terrain had notable vegetation etc.

Blade looks well marked, but nothing to the FFL it appears, but the Talabot markings are notable.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks CC! If I recall as a kid, our foreign legion 'uniform' was mostly a ball cap with a towel under it to cover our necks
...

I remember buying a summer hat with a neck flap, and my first reaction wearing it was to hum Le Boudin*.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwM3oYi5ltQ


...And they still carry axes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yASlGCLkBSw




*- I was about 40


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[fernando]

What took you so long, Wayne ?

[Jim McDougall]

It has long been an affinity of mine to find often obscure topics in arms history and try to discover more on these areas, and this, with the Foreign Legion (Regiment Etranger) of course seemed a good one.

As has been seen, for some of us, the stories of the Foreign Legion we were exposed to in our younger years are long remembered, just as would be the case with young boys yearning for adventure. Ironically in the movie "Beau Geste" which I unfortunately used anecdotally here, the opening scenes had to do with young boys dreaming of adventure, which of course brought in the "Legion'.
It would be hard to look into this topic without these elements brought to the fore.

In seeking more information as I had hoped for here, I have gone into a number of references and it seems there is a remarkable lack of information on the Foreign Legion in the 19th century, particularly in North Africa. That was primarily the reason for the use of the movie in opening, as this has been virtually the only context generally remembered as noted in the discussion.

I finally found a source which might explain this situation, from "French Foreign Legion" (Martin Windrow, 1971,p.3) ;
"...it is arguable that no body of fighting men in the whole history of European arms has been so inundated with ill informed publicity as the French Foreign Legion. For more than a century this famous corps has been alternately libelled and romanticized by a steady stream of sentimental fiction, ill founded horror stories in the popular press, indignant newspaper leaders, and catch penny film and television scripts. Some of the most persistent myths are still in wide currency today".

This is an intriguing opening for a history of a famed military group, and which explains here that it was known more for being notorious than elite it seems.
This seems much more the case for the years of the 19th century, which of course is the period for which I sought information here.

In further explaining the romanticizing of the Legion, this reference in describing Algeria (the region of interest noted 1867-82 the period setting for the "Beau Geste" novel) says,
"...the years 1867-75 were unhappy for the officers and men of the Regiment Etranger. Minor tax gathering sorties alternated with road building and deathly monotonous garrison duty in tiny posts in the Sahara. It was in conditions such as these that the abuses sprang up of which novelists have made so much".

While once again having to strain the patience of the parameters of the forum ajenda by using the "Beau Geste' fiction in analogy, it appears this period is indeed that intended in the original novel, despite its 1926 publishing.
Here also, we can see the distortion of the perception of the Legion which might account in degree for the lack of specific attention in the body of published material on French arms history as pertains to these regions and times.

What I have been able to find however suggests that the Chasspot rifles and later the Gras rifles were primary weapons used by the Legion in these areas and times.
The rest is as they say, history, and as this topic seems at a terminus here, I'd like to thank you guys for the entries and participation.

[rickystl]

Interesting Thread to say the least. Thanks Jim for starting.

Rick: That MAS revolver looks to be in great condition. Glad you found a source for ammo. Fun stuff.

We must be close to the same age. I too remember Captain Gallant on Saturday mornings. LOL

Beau Geste: I need to watch this movie again. Been many years.

Rick

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Interesting Thread to say the least. Thanks Jim for starting.

Rick: That MAS revolver looks to be in great condition. Glad you found a source for ammo. Fun stuff.

We must be close to the same age. I too remember Captain Gallant on Saturday mornings. LOL

Beau Geste: I need to watch this movie again. Been many years.

Rick

Hey Rick, thank you for coming in! and I had hoped this would be a topic of interest........looks like another Captain Gallant fan! Its fun remembering those good old days and what adventure with these films and series. The opening of "Beau Geste" pretty much says it as it portrays the acting out adventurous history......what led to my hopeless obsession with arms collecting and studying their history along with the people who used them.
We're all it seems about the same age, but still kids at heart!