Afghan kukri with Armory marks? With pix.

spiral · 14th June 2006, 07:58 PM

Another Afghan kukri arrived today!

This one is much more traditional Gurkha military in style than my other.

It is the 4th one of this exact pattern known amongst the main kukri collectors, only 1 other is stamped though.

This one was a recent Afghanistan bringback by a US soldier. One of the others known was owned by a Russian ex. Spertsnaz Colonel who also picked his up in Afghanistan

John Powell used to think they may date from 1895 for Gurkhas stationed in Afghanistan but I think are probably more likley just pre. or around WW1 era.

16inch blade ,weights 25 oz definatly a weapon rather than a tool.

all coments, thoughts, questians, opinions, information etc. welcome!

I Need to find sources of info on the armoury marks if anyone has any clues? or has seen similar marks? Presumably from Afghan or North West Frontier Indian armourys?

Spiral

ariel · 14th June 2006, 08:03 PM

Two mosques and cannons: it is a stamp of the Mazar-i-Sharif arsenal; Northern Afghanistan, essentially Uzbek territory.
Those Gurkhas traveled far....

Ian · 14th June 2006, 08:14 PM

Ariel:

You are a treasure trove of obscure information. Where did you find those marks catalogued?

Ian.

spiral · 14th June 2006, 08:40 PM

Wow! Thankyou Ariell! thats brilliant!

Can you quote sources or show other examples or other weapons from there by any chance? any dates? any other info at all?

cheers!

Spiral

Rivkin · 14th June 2006, 09:05 PM

I think the issue of uzbek/afgani shashkas (of which Ariel is a prominent collectors) comes up here and now. I also think some of them belong to the above mentioned arsenal.

Rick · 14th June 2006, 09:06 PM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=Mazar+Sharif

spiral · 14th June 2006, 09:25 PM

Thankyou Rick! Rivkin!

Getting this kukri has been the only thing that saved today bieng realy poor!

So to get this info after has realy made my day!

Can anyone read the date? that would top it!

Thankyou
Spiral

Thankyou
Spiral

Rivkin · 14th June 2006, 09:39 PM

1312 a.h., or 1894/95 a.d.

Tim Simmons · 14th June 2006, 09:46 PM

But it has a brass bolster

spiral · 14th June 2006, 09:49 PM

Wow thank you Rivkin! JP was right then! I though it was nearer WW1.

Spiral

spiral · 14th June 2006, 09:50 PM

Indeed Tim! but its not Nepali or Indian!

Its from outside the box!

Spiral

Tim Simmons · 14th June 2006, 09:54 PM

Yes but it is there, you can now no longer be certain of non issue items elsewhere. Saying that these might have been commissioned.

spiral · 14th June 2006, 10:01 PM

I could show you English made ones that would destroy all theorys of Indian & Nepali kukri Tim.

I wasnt dating the Afghan from the brass bolster but from the design & threaded tang. I thought it {the nut} was probably copied from the mk.1 perhaps it was the other way round? or something else entirly?

The bolster is also a heavy casting. That doesnt happen in Nepal or India either.

I cant swear there will never be an exception to the rule, but it will be that. an exception.

Spiral

ariel · 14th June 2006, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Ariel:

You are a treasure trove of obscure information. Where did you find those marks catalogued?

Ian.

My wife also thinks that my head is filled with a lot of junky stuff and not much useful information...
I have 2 Afghani shashkas (pseudoshashkas), with the same stamp.

spiral · 14th June 2006, 10:30 PM

Thankyou Ariel, Ive found the photos thanks to Rick & the archives in general.

Now I can try to find out which regiments where there at that time.

as you said they traveled about!

Indeed thankyou all for your input!

Made my day!

cheers,
Spiral

Tim Simmons · 15th June 2006, 09:08 PM

Spiral.

Why do you say castings are not used in India or Nepal? Clearly there has been little shaping/filing to the Afghan example, all credit to the foundry, but the brass bolster on other examples appear cast and droped down the tang then briazed and filed to shape to accomadate the handle.

Rick · 15th June 2006, 09:40 PM

Spiral,
Interesting how the marks had changed over just a few years . I wonder if these kukris were private purchase (no broad arrow mark) or a comission from the Brits who were firmly ensconced (sp?) in Afghanistan during this time . They had a long standing treaty with Abdur Rahman with the aim of keeping the Russians away from the approaches to India .

Possibly you might want to check this piece for signs of pattern welding .

Now that I have gotten my sabre out I have discovered yet another stamping on the opposite side of the quillon !
This will be the subject for another thread if I can pull a decent picture of it .
So, many thanks to *you* Spiral !

spiral · 15th June 2006, 11:36 PM

Tim, traditional Nepali & Indian bolsters are made from folded thin sheet, bent round the rebate in the handle & brazed.Not cast. appearances can be decieving! some later issue Indian made military ones are blocks of steel welded on then ground.

Rick to naked eye I cant see signs of pattern welding & dont think I will etch this one to truly find out yet. Have any other swords from this armoury shown pattern welding?

lots of issue kukri didnt have the broad arrow mark, but I think this kukri if for British army Gurkhas would be for officers only, {as you say private purchase.} as it is pure weapon not a tool. Inlisted mens were both utility & weapons capable.

{officers didnt cut firewood etc.}

My knowledge of Afghaistan at this point is weak but I think the British had left by then? & Abdur Rahman was ruling? {obviosly we were still playing on Indian N.W.F.} but I may be mistaken.

I am wondering if he imployed any Gurkha mercenaries or bodygaurds perhaps ? or were allocated Any by the Brits.?

As it appers these kukri carry the same arsenal marks as offcial Afghan goverment swords? presuably this was an official goverment arsenal?

Also 2 of the 4 examples are known to have been picked up in Afghanistan, which seems a high percentage? {to date anyway!}

I would be interested in yours veiws & any info or points anyone might have.

Spiral

Ps. I just have to find a sword or two with those marks now!

Rick · 16th June 2006, 01:33 AM

Hi Spiral , if I recall correctly Mazar I Sharif was a Afghan Royal Armory .

I'm also fairly sure from what I have read that there was a strong treaty in force with Abdur Rahman and a settled border with Russia about that time .

It would make sense that in such a delicate area the British would have wanted at least a minimal representative force on the ground to insure the peace and guard against Russian intrigue ; thus Gurkha troops may well have been present .

An interesting read on this time, area and the politics is *The Great Game* by Peter Hopkirk .

The Afghan sabre that I have is seldom seen for sale although with the presence of Western troops there this may change . I believe in my years of collecting I have only seen 8 or 10 examples of this style sabre . I have seen the hilts and variations thereof mounted to Khyber blades ; doubtful that these Khyber blades were from the royal armory though .

Tim Simmons · 16th June 2006, 06:59 AM

That is interesting one can find cast brass used on the handles of more or less every version of edged weapon from India and Nepal but not on Kukri.

spiral · 16th June 2006, 02:47 PM

Thats very true Tim, I wonder if it points to a different original origin or developmental process?

Thanks Rick, I will have to get that book.{easier to find than the swords!}

Just been checking the 5th Gurkhas regimental history & some other stuff & my past notes & have come to this conclusian at the time bieng. {more info is always still usefull of course.}

The king {khan} of Afghanistan as you say was our allie then, & we didnt as far as I can see have any garrison inside Afghanistan, But we may have had" obsevers" there watching the Russians & possibly doing "special forces"type stuff though. {as "observers" often do.}

We attached Gurkha officers to ther Japanese army when they were fighting the Russians etc. so I guess we would use Gurkha officers attached to the Afghans if the wanted or rather accepted that.

Wazitistan, Chitral etc, were Gurkhas fought at that time against Afghani tribsmen were NWF of India.

So I think Gurkha officers as Special forces observers attached to Afghan army seems a possiblity.

No proof though. Just conjecture.

Guess a few of these swords must have gone back to Russia as well... mmmm I realy want a couple!

Spiral

14th June 2006, 07:58 PM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Afghan kukri with Armory marks? With pix. Another Afghan kukri arrived today! This one is much more traditional Gurkha military in style than my other. It is the 4th one of this exact pattern known amongst the main kukri collectors, only 1 other is stamped though. This one was a recent Afghanistan bringback by a US soldier. One of the others known was owned by a Russian ex. Spertsnaz Colonel who also picked his up in Afghanistan John Powell used to think they may date from 1895 for Gurkhas stationed in Afghanistan but I think are probably more likley just pre. or around WW1 era. 16inch blade ,weights 25 oz definatly a weapon rather than a tool. all coments, thoughts, questians, opinions, information etc. welcome! I Need to find sources of info on the armoury marks if anyone has any clues? or has seen similar marks? Presumably from Afghan or North West Frontier Indian armourys? Spiral

14th June 2006, 08:14 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Well done ... Ariel: You are a treasure trove of obscure information. Where did you find those marks catalogued? Ian.

15th June 2006, 11:36 PM	#18
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Tim, traditional Nepali & Indian bolsters are made from folded thin sheet, bent round the rebate in the handle & brazed.Not cast. appearances can be decieving! some later issue Indian made military ones are blocks of steel welded on then ground. Rick to naked eye I cant see signs of pattern welding & dont think I will etch this one to truly find out yet. Have any other swords from this armoury shown pattern welding? lots of issue kukri didnt have the broad arrow mark, but I think this kukri if for British army Gurkhas would be for officers only, {as you say private purchase.} as it is pure weapon not a tool. Inlisted mens were both utility & weapons capable. {officers didnt cut firewood etc.} My knowledge of Afghaistan at this point is weak but I think the British had left by then? & Abdur Rahman was ruling? {obviosly we were still playing on Indian N.W.F.} but I may be mistaken. I am wondering if he imployed any Gurkha mercenaries or bodygaurds perhaps ? or were allocated Any by the Brits.? As it appers these kukri carry the same arsenal marks as offcial Afghan goverment swords? presuably this was an official goverment arsenal? Also 2 of the 4 examples are known to have been picked up in Afghanistan, which seems a high percentage? {to date anyway!} I would be interested in yours veiws & any info or points anyone might have. Spiral Ps. I just have to find a sword or two with those marks now! Last edited by spiral; 16th June 2006 at 12:22 AM.

14th June 2006, 08:03 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Two mosques and cannons: it is a stamp of the Mazar-i-Sharif arsenal; Northern Afghanistan, essentially Uzbek territory. Those Gurkhas traveled far....

14th June 2006, 08:40 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Wow! Thankyou Ariell! thats brilliant! Can you quote sources or show other examples or other weapons from there by any chance? any dates? any other info at all? cheers! Spiral

14th June 2006, 09:05 PM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I think the issue of uzbek/afgani shashkas (of which Ariel is a prominent collectors) comes up here and now. I also think some of them belong to the above mentioned arsenal.

14th June 2006, 09:06 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=Mazar+Sharif

14th June 2006, 09:25 PM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thankyou Rick! Rivkin! Getting this kukri has been the only thing that saved today bieng realy poor! So to get this info after has realy made my day! Can anyone read the date? that would top it! Thankyou Spiral Thankyou Spiral

14th June 2006, 09:39 PM	#8
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	1312 a.h., or 1894/95 a.d.

14th June 2006, 09:46 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	But it has a brass bolster

14th June 2006, 09:49 PM	#10
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Wow thank you Rivkin! JP was right then! I though it was nearer WW1. Spiral

14th June 2006, 09:50 PM	#11
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Indeed Tim! but its not Nepali or Indian! Its from outside the box! Spiral

14th June 2006, 09:54 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Yes but it is there, you can now no longer be certain of non issue items elsewhere. Saying that these might have been commissioned.

14th June 2006, 10:01 PM	#13
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I could show you English made ones that would destroy all theorys of Indian & Nepali kukri Tim. I wasnt dating the Afghan from the brass bolster but from the design & threaded tang. I thought it {the nut} was probably copied from the mk.1 perhaps it was the other way round? or something else entirly? The bolster is also a heavy casting. That doesnt happen in Nepal or India either. I cant swear there will never be an exception to the rule, but it will be that. an exception. Spiral

14th June 2006, 10:30 PM	#15
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thankyou Ariel, Ive found the photos thanks to Rick & the archives in general. Now I can try to find out which regiments where there at that time. as you said they traveled about! Indeed thankyou all for your input! Made my day! cheers, Spiral

15th June 2006, 09:08 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Spiral. Why do you say castings are not used in India or Nepal? Clearly there has been little shaping/filing to the Afghan example, all credit to the foundry, but the brass bolster on other examples appear cast and droped down the tang then briazed and filed to shape to accomadate the handle.

15th June 2006, 09:40 PM	#17
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Spiral, Interesting how the marks had changed over just a few years . I wonder if these kukris were private purchase (no broad arrow mark) or a comission from the Brits who were firmly ensconced (sp?) in Afghanistan during this time . They had a long standing treaty with Abdur Rahman with the aim of keeping the Russians away from the approaches to India . Possibly you might want to check this piece for signs of pattern welding . Now that I have gotten my sabre out I have discovered yet another stamping on the opposite side of the quillon ! This will be the subject for another thread if I can pull a decent picture of it . So, many thanks to you Spiral !

16th June 2006, 01:33 AM	#19
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Hi Spiral , if I recall correctly Mazar I Sharif was a Afghan Royal Armory . I'm also fairly sure from what I have read that there was a strong treaty in force with Abdur Rahman and a settled border with Russia about that time . It would make sense that in such a delicate area the British would have wanted at least a minimal representative force on the ground to insure the peace and guard against Russian intrigue ; thus Gurkha troops may well have been present . An interesting read on this time, area and the politics is The Great Game by Peter Hopkirk . The Afghan sabre that I have is seldom seen for sale although with the presence of Western troops there this may change . I believe in my years of collecting I have only seen 8 or 10 examples of this style sabre . I have seen the hilts and variations thereof mounted to Khyber blades ; doubtful that these Khyber blades were from the royal armory though .

16th June 2006, 06:59 AM	#20
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	That is interesting one can find cast brass used on the handles of more or less every version of edged weapon from India and Nepal but not on Kukri.

16th June 2006, 02:47 PM	#21
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thats very true Tim, I wonder if it points to a different original origin or developmental process? Thanks Rick, I will have to get that book.{easier to find than the swords!} Just been checking the 5th Gurkhas regimental history & some other stuff & my past notes & have come to this conclusian at the time bieng. {more info is always still usefull of course.} The king {khan} of Afghanistan as you say was our allie then, & we didnt as far as I can see have any garrison inside Afghanistan, But we may have had" obsevers" there watching the Russians & possibly doing "special forces"type stuff though. {as "observers" often do.} We attached Gurkha officers to ther Japanese army when they were fighting the Russians etc. so I guess we would use Gurkha officers attached to the Afghans if the wanted or rather accepted that. Wazitistan, Chitral etc, were Gurkhas fought at that time against Afghani tribsmen were NWF of India. So I think Gurkha officers as Special forces observers attached to Afghan army seems a possiblity. No proof though. Just conjecture. Guess a few of these swords must have gone back to Russia as well... mmmm I realy want a couple! Spiral