Misecorde, Stiletto, ?

kronckew · 20th August 2022, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

And here's another example with what I call the 'propeller' pattern crossguard, which I think is an English pattern.

The book I referenced above "British Swords and Swordsmanship" pg. 56, lists it as 'Propeller pattern circa 1790"
Note the oval disk ref. - and the 'button', I'd guess was added after mfg. by the outfitter or purchaser.

M ELEY · 20th August 2022, 09:33 AM

Ha! And here I thought I'd come up with that term on my own! Thanks for that reference, Wayne, as well as confirmation of my suspected belief that it was a British pattern.

M ELEY · 20th August 2022, 09:39 AM

Opps, crossed paths with your post, David. I think you nailed it correctly. This is a civilian 'gambler's boot dagger' type seen in the Old West up to the 20's. Interestingly, many of these were actually made in Sheffield (that pommel cap resembing the English ones so much) and sold to the U.S. market back in the 19th c. The ivory hilts and fitting throw people into thinking naval dirk, but the blade is more like an Arkansas toothpick knife of the Old West. Nice piece!

kronckew · 20th August 2022, 10:38 AM

Again, from my ref. book:
Pg.55

"The very small ones were simply cutlery used at the table or as the basic working tools of a seaman. Larger and more ornate dirks could well have served the same purposes but also acted as an indication of officer status".

It goes on to mention a length of 18 in. (457 mm) making them very substantial weapons.

It also mentions a caution that dirks were also worn by Army Officers and even Merchant Marine Officers.

...and possibly short ones as gambler's weapons.

Jim McDougall · 20th August 2022, 08:30 PM

In Annis in his descriptions he does apply the caveat that many examples are presumed maritime or naval but falls back from declaring as absolute, probably because of these other areas of use.

Capn.....amazing examples!!! as would be expected in context of your holdings

Wayne, always very much appreciate your great insights which come from a well seasoned naval background. Always great perspective!!!

M ELEY · 21st August 2022, 09:32 AM

Thanks, Jim for your comments. Of course that does make sense. Smaller dirks could easily have been used as tools aboard ship. Both clasp knives and fixed blade knives of smaller fashion were used to trim lines, cut rope, carve scrimshaw, cut away old sail cloth and could be used like a fid in a pinch.

fernando · 21st August 2022, 10:29 AM

Remember my Brazilian example; surely for a cadet number one uniform.

20th August 2022, 09:33 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Ha! And here I thought I'd come up with that term on my own! Thanks for that reference, Wayne, as well as confirmation of my suspected belief that it was a British pattern.

20th August 2022, 09:39 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Opps, crossed paths with your post, David. I think you nailed it correctly. This is a civilian 'gambler's boot dagger' type seen in the Old West up to the 20's. Interestingly, many of these were actually made in Sheffield (that pommel cap resembing the English ones so much) and sold to the U.S. market back in the 19th c. The ivory hilts and fitting throw people into thinking naval dirk, but the blade is more like an Arkansas toothpick knife of the Old West. Nice piece!

20th August 2022, 10:38 AM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	Again, from my ref. book: Pg.55 "The very small ones were simply cutlery used at the table or as the basic working tools of a seaman. Larger and more ornate dirks could well have served the same purposes but also acted as an indication of officer status". It goes on to mention a length of 18 in. (457 mm) making them very substantial weapons. It also mentions a caution that dirks were also worn by Army Officers and even Merchant Marine Officers. ...and possibly short ones as gambler's weapons.

20th August 2022, 08:30 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	In Annis in his descriptions he does apply the caveat that many examples are presumed maritime or naval but falls back from declaring as absolute, probably because of these other areas of use. Capn.....amazing examples!!! as would be expected in context of your holdings Wayne, always very much appreciate your great insights which come from a well seasoned naval background. Always great perspective!!!

21st August 2022, 09:32 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thanks, Jim for your comments. Of course that does make sense. Smaller dirks could easily have been used as tools aboard ship. Both clasp knives and fixed blade knives of smaller fashion were used to trim lines, cut rope, carve scrimshaw, cut away old sail cloth and could be used like a fid in a pinch.

21st August 2022, 10:29 AM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Remember my Brazilian example; surely for a cadet number one uniform.