Kaskra translation please?

Tim Simmons · 12th June 2006, 01:12 PM

I got this from ebay, offered for sale by a member of this form. I knew it would not be going cheap. I had to have it, to go with my axe. It is not a combat weapon in anyway. I would think it was the possession of a pious Ansar perhaps a cleric or other rabble rouser with accoutrement's designed to imitate those of the poor. After careful removal of the 20th century with acetone, oil dressing on the leather it is looking good. It is possible it is from the same workshop as the axe judging by the thuluth. Raja and someone else were kindly able to provide a translation for some of the script on the axe. I wonder if someone could translate the script near the hilt. Thanks in advance

Valjhun · 12th June 2006, 02:40 PM

It says: "When found, return to Valjhun immediatly."

Tim Simmons · 12th June 2006, 03:20 PM

Thank you Valjhan, I am very pleased. I have been looking on the web and think I have found one of the pieces of script. The form of script is called Naskh.

The example shown says-

In the name of Allah, the most beneficent, the most merciful

I might have it all wrong but that might help prompt others to correct me.

katana · 12th June 2006, 09:39 PM

Nice Kaskara Tim

,
I followed this one myself and was going to bid. as I went to 'conform bid' ....the price shot up, but I am glad that you got it.
Although it is not functional (usually a 'minus' point for me), I think this sword has ....'Je ne sais que' ( I hope I've got that right ). I too, will be most interested in the translation.

Jeff D · 12th June 2006, 09:47 PM

Hi Tim,

Is that a date 1298 ?

Jeff

Tim Simmons · 12th June 2006, 10:19 PM

Hello Jeff,

I cannot read the date. Could you point it out to me? If it is 1298 then using a web site, that comes to 1881, quite early in the Mahdist rebellion.

The other main bidder was a chap from Saudi, who was asking how much to ship to Saudi, so I think I was lucky to get away with my shirt still on.

Katana,

I get a bit tired of a room full of the macho outlook, often a little limiting in my view. I like the esoteric side to weapons, life is full of images about the power invested in the sword, I like to understand how images work and there affects on people.

ariel · 12th June 2006, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Tim,

Is that a date 1298 ?

Jeff

Jeff, I agree 100%: it is dated 1298, ie 1880-1881 Gregorian.
Just the beginning of Mahdi/ British clash!
Well, Tim, my condolences...

It seems that this one may be not just a decorative, esoteric trinket, but a real " mucho macho" sword with battles and blood behind it. Tough for you...

Enjoy it!

Tim Simmons · 12th June 2006, 10:34 PM

Tough indeed!! Thanks Jeff and ariel, I have just got to try and wipe this silly grin off my face

. I am still unsure about its fighting abilities, it is only about 2mm thick tip to hilt and not really tempered, still the hunch proved right.

Rick · 12th June 2006, 11:17 PM

Then again , a man may make a sword at any time and put whatever date he wishes upon its surface , no ?

ariel · 12th June 2006, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Then again , a man may make a sword at any time and put whatever date he wishes upon its surface , no ?

Spoiler...

S.Al-Anizi · 12th June 2006, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Thank you Valjhan, I am very pleased. I have been looking on the web and think I have found one of the pieces of script. The form of script is called Naskh.

The example shown says-

I might have it all wrong but that might help prompt others to correct me.

Hello Tim,

That part of the sword reads " Al-Khartoum Sanat 1298", not "In the name of god, the most beneficent, the most merciful" in arabic. I agree with you, this does not seem to be a quality blade, most etched blades coming out of sudan aren't anyway, the good Kaskara's are the ones with European blades.

Tim Simmons · 13th June 2006, 08:04 AM

The blade on this is not a "good blade" the sword is a concept similar to the jibbeh of the pious that were designed to show the qualities of an ascetic, a beggar in virtuous poverty, newly made with tears and patches and crude stitching. The rebellion was above all a religious movement. This weapon if we can call it that, is a symbol of rank for a noncombatant in the physical sense, more like a political officer in the soviet army of ww2, the first to get the chop. The owner of a sword like this would have been as I mentioned before; a cleric or an orator, a military cheer leader so to speak, only without the legs. How many real peasants had a sword of any kind especially one that does not work and covered with expensive etching. So the idea of a good or bad blade some how misses the point a little.

Tim Simmons · 13th June 2006, 07:07 PM

I forgot to ask, what does the other side of the blade say?

S.Al-Anizi · 13th June 2006, 10:16 PM

I cant really read it, I need a larger/closer pic.

Rick · 13th June 2006, 11:01 PM

Looks like there's a lot of repeated forms in the central panel .

Tweaked the image a bit..

Tim Simmons · 13th June 2006, 11:21 PM

Sorry fellows I did not make myself clear.

Is it the two sides near the hilt that make up - Al-Khartoum Sanat 1298??

The central panels and the rest of the thuluth are I think rather too stylised to make sense unless you are a specialist scholar. Though I do wonder if it is just decoration based on script, playing on the observers lack of literacy, to appear learned and carry authority.

S.Al-Anizi · 14th June 2006, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Looks like there's a lot of repeated forms in the central panel .

Tweaked the image a bit..

What I see here seems to be no more than scribbles, I cant make anything out. Maybe someone else can?

S.Al-Anizi · 14th June 2006, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Sorry fellows I did not make myself clear.

Is it the two sides near the hilt that make up - Al-Khartoum Sanat 1298??

The central panels and the rest of the thuluth are I think rather too stylised to make sense unless you are a specialist scholar. Though I do wonder if it is just decoration based on script, playing on the observers lack of literacy, to appear learned and carry authority.

No Tim, the side which you thought is to read "in the name of god....." is the side that says "Al-Khartoum Sanat 1298", I need a better pic of the other side of the forte to be able to read whats there.

Tim Simmons · 14th June 2006, 08:08 AM

Thanks S. Al-Anizi.

Fingers crossed and with great anticipation you will be able to read this, enough to know the last letters?

It is fasinating and maddening at the same time, not being able to read Aribic.
I really am greatful for your help.

Thanks Tim.

Tim Simmons · 14th June 2006, 11:33 AM

What is "Sanat"? It is not a place. I have been searching Islamic terms and the nearest comparison I have found is-

Sunnat or Mustahab means recommendable, desirable. The acts whose neglect is not punished, but whose performance is rewarded, e.g., the call for prayers (adhan).

Is sanat and sunnat the same thing in this case, a regional pronunciation or old spelling.

I can understand Al-Khartoum sunnat 1298, meaning -The Khartoum call to prayers 1881. Was this a festival held in Khartuoum or something more ambiguous? Or am I making it up as I go along?

S.Al-Anizi · 14th June 2006, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

What is "Sanat"? It is not a place. I have been searching Islamic terms and the nearest comparison I have found is-

Sunnat or Mustahab means recommendable, desirable. The acts whose neglect is not punished, but whose performance is rewarded, e.g., the call for prayers (adhan).

Is sanat and sunnat the same thing in this case, a regional pronunciation or old spelling.

I can understand Al-Khartoum sunnat 1298, meaning -The Khartoum call to prayers 1881. Was this a festival held in Khartuoum or something more ambiguous? Or am I making it up as I go along?

Sanat means year of, which is etched calligraphically under the numbers of 1298. It is different from "sunnat", which means the legacy of.

Tim Simmons · 14th June 2006, 01:39 PM

What about the other pieces of script, are you able to read it? Thanks Tim.

S.Al-Anizi · 14th June 2006, 04:13 PM

Well its hard to read, but I think it says "Ya Rab Nasruka Wa Rithak", "God we seek your aid and acceptance". The etching is very dulled out if you know what I mean, its hard to read the letters.

Tim Simmons · 14th June 2006, 06:45 PM

S.Al-Anizi

Just like to say thanks for your help on this, most enlighten. Your information has made me happy that I stuck my neck out on this item.

"God we seek your aid acceptance"

A pray made physical in this sword. Is most appropriate for the time and place. Whether from followers of the Mahdi or inhabitants of Khartoum wanting relief from bad governance or in fear of the pending conflict. I see no reason to doubt the date. Thanks again you have made it speak, in a way.

12th June 2006, 01:12 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Kaskra translation please? I got this from ebay, offered for sale by a member of this form. I knew it would not be going cheap. I had to have it, to go with my axe. It is not a combat weapon in anyway. I would think it was the possession of a pious Ansar perhaps a cleric or other rabble rouser with accoutrement's designed to imitate those of the poor. After careful removal of the 20th century with acetone, oil dressing on the leather it is looking good. It is possible it is from the same workshop as the axe judging by the thuluth. Raja and someone else were kindly able to provide a translation for some of the script on the axe. I wonder if someone could translate the script near the hilt. Thanks in advance Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 12th June 2006 at 05:06 PM.

12th June 2006, 03:20 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thank you Valjhan, I am very pleased. I have been looking on the web and think I have found one of the pieces of script. The form of script is called Naskh. The example shown says- In the name of Allah, the most beneficent, the most merciful I might have it all wrong but that might help prompt others to correct me. Attached Images

13th June 2006, 11:01 PM	#15
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Looks like there's a lot of repeated forms in the central panel . Tweaked the image a bit.. Attached Images

14th June 2006, 08:08 AM	#19
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thanks S. Al-Anizi. Fingers crossed and with great anticipation you will be able to read this, enough to know the last letters? It is fasinating and maddening at the same time, not being able to read Aribic. I really am greatful for your help. Thanks Tim. Attached Images

14th June 2006, 04:13 PM	#23
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Well its hard to read, but I think it says "Ya Rab Nasruka Wa Rithak", "God we seek your aid and acceptance". The etching is very dulled out if you know what I mean, its hard to read the letters. Last edited by S.Al-Anizi; 14th June 2006 at 06:50 PM.

12th June 2006, 02:40 PM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	It says: "When found, return to Valjhun immediatly."

12th June 2006, 09:39 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Nice Kaskara Tim , I followed this one myself and was going to bid. as I went to 'conform bid' ....the price shot up, but I am glad that you got it. Although it is not functional (usually a 'minus' point for me), I think this sword has ....'Je ne sais que' ( I hope I've got that right ). I too, will be most interested in the translation.

12th June 2006, 09:47 PM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Tim, Is that a date 1298 ? Jeff

12th June 2006, 10:19 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hello Jeff, I cannot read the date. Could you point it out to me? If it is 1298 then using a web site, that comes to 1881, quite early in the Mahdist rebellion. The other main bidder was a chap from Saudi, who was asking how much to ship to Saudi, so I think I was lucky to get away with my shirt still on. Katana, I get a bit tired of a room full of the macho outlook, often a little limiting in my view. I like the esoteric side to weapons, life is full of images about the power invested in the sword, I like to understand how images work and there affects on people.

12th June 2006, 10:34 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Tough indeed!! Thanks Jeff and ariel, I have just got to try and wipe this silly grin off my face . I am still unsure about its fighting abilities, it is only about 2mm thick tip to hilt and not really tempered, still the hunch proved right.

12th June 2006, 11:17 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Then again , a man may make a sword at any time and put whatever date he wishes upon its surface , no ?

13th June 2006, 08:04 AM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The blade on this is not a "good blade" the sword is a concept similar to the jibbeh of the pious that were designed to show the qualities of an ascetic, a beggar in virtuous poverty, newly made with tears and patches and crude stitching. The rebellion was above all a religious movement. This weapon if we can call it that, is a symbol of rank for a noncombatant in the physical sense, more like a political officer in the soviet army of ww2, the first to get the chop. The owner of a sword like this would have been as I mentioned before; a cleric or an orator, a military cheer leader so to speak, only without the legs. How many real peasants had a sword of any kind especially one that does not work and covered with expensive etching. So the idea of a good or bad blade some how misses the point a little.

13th June 2006, 07:07 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I forgot to ask, what does the other side of the blade say?

13th June 2006, 10:16 PM	#14
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	I cant really read it, I need a larger/closer pic.

13th June 2006, 11:21 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Sorry fellows I did not make myself clear. Is it the two sides near the hilt that make up - Al-Khartoum Sanat 1298?? The central panels and the rest of the thuluth are I think rather too stylised to make sense unless you are a specialist scholar. Though I do wonder if it is just decoration based on script, playing on the observers lack of literacy, to appear learned and carry authority.

14th June 2006, 11:33 AM	#20
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	What is "Sanat"? It is not a place. I have been searching Islamic terms and the nearest comparison I have found is- Sunnat or Mustahab means recommendable, desirable. The acts whose neglect is not punished, but whose performance is rewarded, e.g., the call for prayers (adhan). Is sanat and sunnat the same thing in this case, a regional pronunciation or old spelling. I can understand Al-Khartoum sunnat 1298, meaning -The Khartoum call to prayers 1881. Was this a festival held in Khartuoum or something more ambiguous? Or am I making it up as I go along?

14th June 2006, 01:39 PM	#22
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	What about the other pieces of script, are you able to read it? Thanks Tim.

14th June 2006, 06:45 PM	#24
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	fascinating S.Al-Anizi Just like to say thanks for your help on this, most enlighten. Your information has made me happy that I stuck my neck out on this item. "God we seek your aid acceptance" A pray made physical in this sword. Is most appropriate for the time and place. Whether from followers of the Mahdi or inhabitants of Khartoum wanting relief from bad governance or in fear of the pending conflict. I see no reason to doubt the date. Thanks again you have made it speak, in a way. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 14th June 2006 at 06:50 PM. Reason: spelling!!