Paternosters on blades

[Interested Party]

Interesting. I am looking forward to seeing some examples. I had one blade that was almost a candidate, it was a European blade that had spent time in Indonesia. Sadly, it had only 3 large holes and 4 small ones. I am not convinced they weren't added by an unscrupulous seller at some point. It seems that the dots typically would be in denominations of 10, 50, or 150 representing Psalms plus the gauds or large beads for a Paternostro. A Rosery can have several versions depending on the purpose ordered in "decades." I am attaching a link to a short summary on prayer beads I found that includes a small bibliography. Actually, quite topically enlightening and not linked to a commercial site that I can find.

http://www.paternoster-row.medievalscotland.org/

[Jim McDougall]

Yup Fernando, definitely not postcard material!!!
That is the point, there is no widespread presence of the paternoster term being used in sword nomenclature or terminology, in fact virtually none. It is only in the often unexpected material presented in Burton that this is presented as some sort of known practice or representation.

Interested party, thank you for your observations and good points. The presence of rapier blades with openwork panels in the blade center/fuller suggests that pierced blades were known in degree. These do not however qualify with reference to paternosters. I know there are examples out there with holes or dots, but have yet to find them.

Well noted that if intended to represent actual rosary beads, there would be significant numbers in those large denominations, but the simile comparing the holes is just that, a comparison in colloquial sense much as with the rocks.
To recite prayers accompanied by a physical object (bead or rock) is the intended note, not necessarily the number.

The objective here is to find blade examples with holes (as suggested by the authors I noted, often in transverse and vertical lines of holes. Also to find this term used in sword descriptions and/or referred to in any of the sword literature.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Interested party, thank you for your observations and good points. The presence of rapier blades with openwork panels in the blade center/fuller suggests that pierced blades were known in degree. These do not however qualify with reference to paternosters. I know there are examples out there with holes or dots, but have yet to find them.

Well noted that if intended to represent actual rosary beads, there would be significant numbers in those large denominations, but the simile comparing the holes is just that, a comparison in colloquial sense much as with the rocks.
To recite prayers accompanied by a physical object (bead or rock) is the intended note, not necessarily the number.

The objective here is to find blade examples with holes (as suggested by the authors I noted, often in transverse and vertical lines of holes. Also to find this term used in sword descriptions and/or referred to in any of the sword literature.

There doesn't have to be large numbers. 15 cycles of 10 prayers would give you 150 Paternosters representing the 150 Psalms popular before the Rosary. Kind of reminds me of a Tibetan prayer wheel in concept. Four decades of Ave Marias with 4 gauds would be a Rosary for the dead. Interesting topic as always and an appropriate topic for my Sunday morning coffee.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

There doesn't have to be large numbers. 15 cycles of 10 prayers would give you 150 Paternosters representing the 150 Psalms popular before the Rosary. Kind of reminds me of a Tibetan prayer wheel in concept. Four decades of Ave Marias with 4 gauds would be a Rosary for the dead. Interesting topic as always and an appropriate topic for my Sunday morning coffee.

Thank you for explaining that further, as clearly I am far from well versed in this area and it helps to understand the relative associations of numbers in these matters. Good note on the Tibetan prayer wheel as well, something I have heard of but honestly never thought much on how they were used.

[Jim McDougall]

The term (= seek and ye shall find) is from the mysterious inscription on the green flag (of Florentine soldiers defending Siena in the Battle of Marciano) in the fresco by Vasari.

I found this "The Paternoster Blade" by Chris Laning, in the Paternoster journal Jan. 8, 2008, in which this 'curiosity' which has been piqued in me seems to have affected others as well.
It is noted as a reference in Stone's huge compendium of 1934 describing the paternoster on sword blade phenomenon, and citing Burton (as I have noted) 1884, p.136 as a source.

The author here describes the fallibility of Victorian scholarship and also suggests that Burton, seeming to be the key source to this notion, likely saw this referred to and elaborated accordingly. While the practice of using the blade decoration as described is unlikely , here another Victorian myth was born.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I found this "The Paternoster Blade" by Chris Laning, in the Paternoster journal Jan. 8, 2008, in which this 'curiosity' which has been piqued in me seems to have affected others as well...

... As i have previously quoted Chris Laning's paragraph on the subject in my post #10. Looks like this theme development is still not beyond the only existing Burton's fantasy.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

... As i have previously quoted Chris Laning's paragraph on the subject in my post #10. Looks like this theme development is still not beyond the only existing Burton's fantasy.

My apologies Fernando for this oversight, I had not remembered you cited Laning as the author in your excerpt in that post, and I thought I had found support for that content in my effort. Whatever the case, your position on the well described 'Burton fantasy' is well placed, and properly acknowledged. It seems that the advance of serious study of sword history marches on, and I do appreciate the contributions you have always made sincerely.