African (?) knife

Ian · 29th July 2022, 02:16 AM

Hi Rob,

Exchanges of goods and crafts (including craftsmen) between regions along the Mediterranean coast and inland has been ongoing for millennia. Diffusion of styles has been inevitable, as goods and those who made them have moved around the various trading bodies. What works well or looks prestigious in one culture may also be desirable in another, perhaps with some local flair added. Human beings are an imaginative species and we like to tinker with other people's ideas and make our own, culturally appealing items.

We see a similar thing with automobiles. GM takes a Japanese vehicle, brands it with the GM label, and we have an "American" car. Same car, different label, but maybe some different tax implications. The only physical difference is the label. The "true" provenance of the vehicle (design, technical specs, etc.) is Japanese, and if we stripped away the labels we would say it is a Japanese vehicle. But culturally is it not also an American car (US materials, labor, construction).

What if we imported all the pieces and assembled them in the US, would this be an American car culturally? After all, the labor and construction occurred in the US. The Internal Revenue Service might be persuaded that there is sufficient US content to qualify as a locally made vehicle, and thereby provide some tax benefits. But is it truly a US vehicle?

I think we need to look at fundamental design. Edged weapons are defined by their edge, i.e., the blade. Hilt, scabbard, and decorative elements are secondary features, often adjusted to local preferences.

Getting back to knives in question, it seems to me that we have slender, double-edged blades with a centered point, often with a small ricasso or bolster, and circular hilts of diverse materials including various metals and wood. One style we might call Spanish (faca da ponta) and the other West African, according to the cultural decorative elements. The question of which came first is hard to answer. Given the exchange of trade, ideas and craftsmen within that geographic region, it seems likely to me that some diffusion of style occurred. I hesitate to say in which direction that diffusion occurred. However, given that the stiletto form has been around a long time among Mediterranean and Western European countries (and elsewhere) it's hard to know where its origin may have been.

RobT · 2nd August 2022, 02:31 AM

Hi Ian,

One can perhaps say that, for a brief time (1950-1965), American cars (the famous Yank Tanks) were characterized by a large size and flamboyance which set them apart from other cars worldwide. It could be argued that these cars were the final (and most extreme) example of American Streamline but, that being said, it should be noted that American Streamline was just an American manifestation of the Art Deco and there was really nothing particularly or distinctly "American" about it. With the advent of international mass market auto sales, any and all cultural design queues vanished. Today, an SUV is an SUV is an SUV. Regardless of where they are designed or made, automotive vehicles are styled to appeal to a global market and their technical specs (emission standards, safety, etc) are modified as needed to be legal for all countries. Given the above, I don't think provenance matters at all.
This isn't the case with the three knives in question. Here we are trying to establish provenance based on stylistic queues that are culturally distinct and are present because of their appeal to a niche market. I agree wholly with your point about stylistic diffusion in the Mediterranean. Which is precisely why I contend that, in the absence of any absolute proof, it can't be concluded with any certainty that the three knives in question are either of Spanish or of North African origin.
Regarding the faca de ponta, I have to say that I am convinced that the antecedents of the form came from North Africa because I am unaware of any Spanish or Portuguese knife that looks like a faca de ponta but, as Wodimi's site amply shows, there are a lot of Northern African ones that do. As a personal aside, I bought my first faca de ponta early in my collecting "career". At that time, I was certain that it was some sort of African dagger and spent a long time searching for an African origin until I stumbled upon the correct information.

Sincerely,
RobT

2nd August 2022, 02:31 AM	#2
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 563	Cars Are Culture Free Hi Ian, One can perhaps say that, for a brief time (1950-1965), American cars (the famous Yank Tanks) were characterized by a large size and flamboyance which set them apart from other cars worldwide. It could be argued that these cars were the final (and most extreme) example of American Streamline but, that being said, it should be noted that American Streamline was just an American manifestation of the Art Deco and there was really nothing particularly or distinctly "American" about it. With the advent of international mass market auto sales, any and all cultural design queues vanished. Today, an SUV is an SUV is an SUV. Regardless of where they are designed or made, automotive vehicles are styled to appeal to a global market and their technical specs (emission standards, safety, etc) are modified as needed to be legal for all countries. Given the above, I don't think provenance matters at all. This isn't the case with the three knives in question. Here we are trying to establish provenance based on stylistic queues that are culturally distinct and are present because of their appeal to a niche market. I agree wholly with your point about stylistic diffusion in the Mediterranean. Which is precisely why I contend that, in the absence of any absolute proof, it can't be concluded with any certainty that the three knives in question are either of Spanish or of North African origin. Regarding the faca de ponta, I have to say that I am convinced that the antecedents of the form came from North Africa because I am unaware of any Spanish or Portuguese knife that looks like a faca de ponta but, as Wodimi's site amply shows, there are a lot of Northern African ones that do. As a personal aside, I bought my first faca de ponta early in my collecting "career". At that time, I was certain that it was some sort of African dagger and spent a long time searching for an African origin until I stumbled upon the correct information. Sincerely, RobT

29th July 2022, 02:16 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	Hi Rob, Exchanges of goods and crafts (including craftsmen) between regions along the Mediterranean coast and inland has been ongoing for millennia. Diffusion of styles has been inevitable, as goods and those who made them have moved around the various trading bodies. What works well or looks prestigious in one culture may also be desirable in another, perhaps with some local flair added. Human beings are an imaginative species and we like to tinker with other people's ideas and make our own, culturally appealing items. We see a similar thing with automobiles. GM takes a Japanese vehicle, brands it with the GM label, and we have an "American" car. Same car, different label, but maybe some different tax implications. The only physical difference is the label. The "true" provenance of the vehicle (design, technical specs, etc.) is Japanese, and if we stripped away the labels we would say it is a Japanese vehicle. But culturally is it not also an American car (US materials, labor, construction). What if we imported all the pieces and assembled them in the US, would this be an American car culturally? After all, the labor and construction occurred in the US. The Internal Revenue Service might be persuaded that there is sufficient US content to qualify as a locally made vehicle, and thereby provide some tax benefits. But is it truly a US vehicle? I think we need to look at fundamental design. Edged weapons are defined by their edge, i.e., the blade. Hilt, scabbard, and decorative elements are secondary features, often adjusted to local preferences. Getting back to knives in question, it seems to me that we have slender, double-edged blades with a centered point, often with a small ricasso or bolster, and circular hilts of diverse materials including various metals and wood. One style we might call Spanish (faca da ponta) and the other West African, according to the cultural decorative elements. The question of which came first is hard to answer. Given the exchange of trade, ideas and craftsmen within that geographic region, it seems likely to me that some diffusion of style occurred. I hesitate to say in which direction that diffusion occurred. However, given that the stiletto form has been around a long time among Mediterranean and Western European countries (and elsewhere) it's hard to know where its origin may have been.