Deccan tulwar

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

There was no direct influence of Chinese culture to Indian one in the 16th century, only indirectly through Iran and Central Asia. If something of Chinese appeared in the Deccan, it first had to appeared in Iran.
In the 18th century, jade hilts were sent from India to China as court gifts. In China also tried to copy them, but such items were very different from the Indian originals.

Well noted, the 'filters' I mentioned indeed included Iran and Central Asia, and the diffusion of these influences in either direction were well traveled via 'the Silk Road'.
Also well noted on the 'court gifts' aspect, which I had not thought of. It would seem many variant sword types with 'hybrid' features reflecting other culturally oriented weapons in the diplomatic gift genre account for many of these anomalies. This makes them extremely interesting of course, and understandably desirable for serious collectors.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Well noted, the 'filters' I mentioned indeed included Iran and Central Asia, and the diffusion of these influences in either direction were well traveled via 'the Silk Road'.

Exactly! And "the Porcelain Road" in XII-XV century.

[ariel]

That's strange...
Are we to believe that Chinese influences jumped over India (despite having direct border and multiple maritime exploits) to Iran and only then,- from Iran, and only in the XVI century,- reached India?
First 4 voyages of Zheng He ( a born Muslim from Yunnan prominent family) in the beginning of XV century involved visits of his enormous trade and gifts fleet to India.

[Mercenary]

1. Active bilateral contacts in the 18th century did not lead to the appearance of Chinese weapons in India or imitation of them , but very doubtful sporadic contacts in the 15-16th century did it?
What other Chinese artifacts at that time did not just end up in India, but influenced traditional culture and were borrowed as phenomenon?
2. The humanitarian visits of the fleet in the 15th century could not yet lead to a change in the cultural or any other landscape.
The Chinese Buddhist monks who traveled through India in the 5th-7th centuries would not be a much worse example.
3. Comparison of the guard on an Indian saber with the guard on a straight Chinese sword, the shape and decor of which have completely different semantic connotations besides the fact that Chinese sabers had completely different guards? Seriously?

It just seems from a postmodernist point of view that someone can sail somewhere and sell something there and everything will change at once. It is impossible to apply such an approach to the historical past and especially to traditional societies.

[ariel]

Active Chinese trade in Kollam ( Malabar Coast) was mentioned by Ibn Battuta in XIV century.
Most likely, it started well before that, if it was “active” then:-)
“Postmodernist” is a fancy word beloved by some contemporary literature critics and defined as “ an intellectual stance or mode of discourse defined by an attitude of skepticism toward what it considers as the grand narratives of modernism, an opposition to epistemic certainty and the stability of meaning, and a doubtful perspective towards the usefulness of ideology in changing social systems.” ( see Wikipedia), but what on Earth does it have in common with our topic of discussion?

Chinese traded with India well before XVI century, and any trade results in the appearance of novel things and modifications of the old ones. Had it not been for McDonald’s, you would not have mile long queues to “Vkusno i tochka” in Moscow:-)

[ariel]

Just to put a cherry on top, see Elgood’s chapter on European swords in Deccan( “Sultans of the South” p.218).
On p.223 he cites Simon Digby that evidence by Fakr-i- Mudabbir in in Delhi early 13th century suggests “… a trade in arms extending through the medieval Islamic world from Europe to China”.
And further he brings several examples of Indian preference of European , including English , blades.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

Just to put a cherry on top, see Elgood’s chapter on European swords in Deccan( “Sultans of the South” p.218).
On p.223 he cites Simon Digby that evidence by Fakr-i- Mudabbir in in Delhi early 13th century suggests “… a trade in arms extending through the medieval Islamic world from Europe to China”.
And further he brings several examples of Indian preference of European , including English , blades.

I see. It is very similar to the case of the translation of Jahangir-name and the term of "phool-katara". There is nothing in Adab al-habr wa'l-shaja'a (by Fakr-i- Mudabbir in Delhi early 13th century) about trade from Europe to China. Moreover, there is nothing about the superiority of European blades. On the contrary, the author of the manuscript calls Indian swords the best of all kind of swords. Where did you find "several examples of Indian preference of European , including English , blades" in the 13th century?

Yes, the author of the manuscript names some kind of swords known to him: Sinhalese, Khazar, Byzantine, Yemeni, Kashmir, Chinese and even Russian. But, firstly, the manuscript itself is largely a fantasy text (the sword was invented by Jamshid), and secondly, as it is usually in the case of medieval Persian-language manuscripts, it conveys not actual and reliable information, but retells the beliefs and legends of the past or information from previous manuscripts.

Besides, how does this prove that in the 16th century there were Chinese swords in the Deccan or, for example, Russian or Khazar ones? A cherry on top

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by ariel

First 4 voyages of Zheng He ( a born Muslim from Yunnan prominent family) in the beginning of XV century involved visits of his enormous trade and gifts fleet to India.

The advances in maritime archeology over the past 20 years have made speculation about Zheng He's fleet irrelevant. No weapons for trade or gifts were found on Chinese ships. It was found on Japanese ships, but they did not reach the coast of India.
Cross-cultural influence took place in other ways. This was especially true in the 14-16 centuries.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

The advances in maritime archeology over the past 20 years have made speculation about Zheng He's fleet irrelevant. No weapons for trade or gifts were found on Chinese ships. It was found on Japanese ships, but they did not reach the coast of India.
Cross-cultural influence took place in other ways. This was especially true in the 14-16 centuries.

I had to go to a big review by Sally Church doi:10.2307/40727457.
She discusses the plausibility of the claim that Zheng He’s flotilla contained 450 feet long trade ships.
Everything is based on old documents and technical speculations.
Obviously, maritime archeology would have been decisive, but there is no mention of ever finding actual ZH’s vessels.
Where did you get your information from? Is it possible that maritime archeologists found much later ships? How many of them were found, if any?
ZH’s flotilla was composed of 317 ships. What is the minimal number of ships to be examined to be certain that the entire armada did not carry weapons as gifts?

[ariel]

Double

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

Firstly, when talking about the swords mentioned in the treatise of the 13th century, it is completely incorrect to use the concepts of "Normans" or "Varangians". By this time, the Normans and Varangians had already gone down in history for 200 years. Therefore, when discussing the treatise, the only correct solution would be to use the term that the author used (of course, if there is no goal to mislead the interlocutors).

Secondly, neither the Normans or the Varangians, nor any of the inhabitants of the North of Europe invented any special sword design. The design of their weapons belongs to the Carolingian sword. In addition, as modern research shows, most of the swords used in Northern Europe were made in the Lower Rhine region (on the territory of modern Germany), where metallurgical and weapons production flourished since the time of the Romans

Viking age ended in 11 century. The earlier origin of “Varangian” sword are irrelevant to our discussion. What counts is an incontrovertible fact that it was Vikings ( Normans, Norsemen, Varangians , Rus or whatever other name you wish to employ) and not Gauls, Romans or any other part of Western Europe, but invading or invited Scandinavians who brought their swords to what now is called Russia. They gave rise to early sovereigns of Russian principalities, and much later Russian aristocracies boasted about their descent from Rurik. Prince Igor was actually Ingvar, Oleg was Helgi, Olga was Helga, all crucial personalities of early history.
When al Kindi in the 9 century spoke of “Rus” swords, he actually referred to “Varangians” (see above).

Armies of Russian princedoms were armed with “Viking” type straight double-edged swords for quite some time after the 11 century. Mostly they were unsigned, and the only Viking-type sword signed in Slavic letters “ koval Ljudota” (smith Ljudota)was found near Poltava ( Ukraine).In the 13 century, having been conquered by the Mongols, they have adopted the weapon of their conquerors, i.e. curved single-edged saber. Subsequent contacts with Islamic armies only strengthened this practice. It was Peter I who did his best to “cut a window to Europe” and remake his military according to European fashions.

Have I misled you? Sorry if you think so.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

The advances in maritime archeology over the past 20 years have made speculation about Zheng He's fleet irrelevant. No weapons for trade or gifts were found on Chinese ships. It was found on Japanese ships, but they did not reach the coast of India.

Do I understand correctly that reliable evidence of the import of weapons from China to India will appear only when maritime archaeologists find Chinese ships with these weapons in their holds? Otherwise, all this can be attributed to myths and legends?