A cannon chainshot

werecow · 8th June 2022, 02:00 AM

Something about it made me think that it was a wooden plug or something along those lines while I was there, but actually, looking at the picture now you might be right! I must confess I did not study it in great detail as there wasn't much time left before closing by the time I got to it.

M ELEY · 8th June 2022, 04:42 AM

I've seen other bar shot recovered with just the one ball and a 'spoke', if you will, of the remains of a bar.

Here's a wedge-shot (what I call them) that also proved these were deadly anti-personnel weapons as well-

https://ltwilliammowett.tumblr.com/p...isima-trinidad

Rick · 8th June 2022, 06:11 AM

I have often heard that French warships fired high during an engagement so as to disable the rig and save the hull for prize whereas the Brits tended to fire at the vessel's hull; I'm sure this needs a grain or two of salt to digest.

Still, I think the majority of injuries and death (pre boarding) were from the resulting splinters caused by the impact of the projectiles. Hence the gun deck(s) were referred to as the slaughterhouse. Imagine a raking broadside to the stern of the foe; the rounds went the entire length of the enemy vessel turning it into essentially an abattoir bowling alley with human pins.

Here's a 18th century engraving of the encounter between HMS Pearl and the French frigate L'Esperance; you'll notice that her mizzen has been shot off, possibly as a result of bar or chain shot we have been discussing.
Found in the wilds of Maine and presented here just for grins, and possibly as an illustration of the effectiveness of projectiles used to disable the rigging.

A description of the action in 1780:
The action of 30 September 1780 was a minor naval engagement off the Bermudas, where HMS Pearl captured Espérance, a French frigate of 32 guns launched in 1779.[1]

HMS Pearl under the command of George Montagu was sent out to North America, and on 30 September 1780, soon encountered a frigate off the Bermudas. As Pearl closed Montagu cleared for action and engaged close for two hours, then maintained a running fight for a further two hours and more when the frigate struck.[2][3]

The prize turned out to be the French frigate Espérance of about 850 tons of thirty-two guns consisting of twelve- and six-pounders, nearly 200 men and with a valuable cargo heading from Cape Francois to Bordeaux. Espérance lost 20 killed and 24 wounded as well as the crew and marines captured, while Pearl's losses were six killed and ten wounded. The captured French frigate was put into Royal Naval service and renamed HMS Clinton.

fernando · 8th June 2022, 09:48 AM

Ho my ... Rick !
The HMS Pearl looks like a colander !!!

.

fernando · 8th June 2022, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... Here's a wedge-shot (what I call them) that also proved these were deadly anti-personnel weapons as well-
https://ltwilliammowett.tumblr.com/p...isima-trinidad

According to the Spanish blog, that version (as 'D' in post #35) was originaly used by the British and, in such case, they were simple prisms or cones joined by a thick bar. This type was apparently the most accurate when it comes to 'palanquetas', so the Spanish navy ended up using them.

Jim McDougall · 8th June 2022, 06:41 PM

Capn, it seems I had heard the term partridge shot, it seems more toward shotguns' ammo, clearly for gaming . Most of the entries I have seen use the term 'hail shot' (perhaps a French term as translated?) This was small shot as well as often added 'burr' from the sprues of casting from round shot.

This was indeed most popularly used on the swivel guns on deck, and it seems was found in the breech block of one of those found on QAR. It seems these guns typically are not found in shipwreck sites as they are typically taken away in initial salvage (quickly accessed being on upper decks). It seems the sling type (as opposed to the shorter, stubby 'murderer' was more prevalent, especially later into 18th c.

Rick I totally agree that the primary purpose of destroying rigging and mast structure was to render the vessel stationary for boarding before the main engagements . Shooting high seems well placed, as that damage would literally bring down considerable and notably heavy spars etc on crew causing initial carnage as well as damage. I suppose that the objective in a battle would be of consideration.....with pirates and privateers the objective was plunder....where in the case of a naval situation, destroying the mark and taking it out of the equation strategically would be key.
Great analogy on the 'bowling alley' thing!!!

Thats exactly what these low velocity round shot were as they slowly traveled through the air, and bounced and rolled as they made contact (pretty much like MY bowling rolls before they found the gutter

Rick · 9th June 2022, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Capn, it seems I had heard the term partridge shot, it seems more toward shotguns' ammo, clearly for gaming . Most of the entries I have seen use the term 'hail shot' (perhaps a French term as translated?) This was small shot as well as often added 'burr' from the sprues of casting from round shot.

This was indeed most popularly used on the swivel guns on deck, and it seems was found in the breech block of one of those found on QAR. It seems these guns typically are not found in shipwreck sites as they are typically taken away in initial salvage (quickly accessed being on upper decks). It seems the sling type (as opposed to the shorter, stubby 'murderer' was more prevalent, especially later into 18th c.

Rick I totally agree that the primary purpose of destroying rigging and mast structure was to render the vessel stationary for boarding before the main engagements . Shooting high seems well placed, as that damage would literally bring down considerable and notably heavy spars etc on crew causing initial carnage as well as damage. I suppose that the objective in a battle would be of consideration.....with pirates and privateers the objective was plunder....where in the case of a naval situation, destroying the mark and taking it out of the equation strategically would be key.
Great analogy on the 'bowling alley' thing!!!

Thats exactly what these low velocity round shot were as they slowly traveled through the air, and bounced and rolled as they made contact (pretty much like MY bowling rolls before they found the gutter

Taking an enemy vessel as prize was a priority during the Age of Fighting Sail.
When one considers the astronomical amount of prime timber needed for a strong vessel of war it was much preferred to capture one extant warship to refit, rename and put into service against the foe rather than to destroy it if at all avoidable. After all, sinking an enemy vessel would cost the victor prize, gun and head money which takes us back to the subject of projectiles for disabling the rigging.

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2022, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Taking an enemy vessel as prize was a priority during the Age of Fighting Sail.
When one considers the astronomical amount of prime timber needed for a strong vessel of war it was much preferred to capture one extant warship to refit, rename and put into service against the foe rather than to destroy it if at all avoidable. After all, sinking an enemy vessel would cost the victor prize, gun and head money which takes us back to the subject of projectiles for disabling the rigging.

Excellent points Rick, well explained. That does make sense, so the less destructive (to the hull) chain or double shot would seem to have been far more useful than all that round shot which seems to have been the most common supply on board. I believe I was thinking more of some of the larger engagements where there were considerable ships from opposing sides involved and the artistic renderings with numbers of ships on fire, but then of course there was likely a great deal of artistic license involved.

CutlassCollector · 11th June 2022, 04:23 PM

I too have also read that the British tended to aim at the hull, or more accurately at the deck - not to sink the ship but to damage the guns and kill as many crew as possible prior to boarding, while the French aimed at the rigging to disable the ship to enable boarding.

The variety of anti rigging shot in this thread is amazing. If the aiming strategy is correct then I wonder if the majority of this type of shot was of French/European manufacture rather than British.

It is also surprising that there is not more evidence of the use of fire projectiles to burn sails and rigging. There are some drawings of 'frisbees' and fire arrows launched from small arms but not much else. Does anyone know anything more about fire projectiles?

Remember that it was very hard to sink a wooden ship with the weapons of the day. There was nothing that could penetrate below the water and any shot coming through at the waterline could be plugged with wood and canvas and warships carried ready made plugs of the diameter of common sizes of shot. This probably only applied to smaller ships anyway. The Victory had sides two foot thick of solid oak and the USS Constitution was nicknamed 'old ironsides' for good reason.

At the Battle of Trafalgar the British captured 20 ships but of the 73 ships involved in the battle only two were sunk and these by fire and explosion. Interestingly nature is not so limited as many ships that had been damaged in the battle were sunk in a storm a few days later.

As early as 1807 Robert Fulton was testing, not very successfully, the first experimental torpedoes at the Washington Navy Yard.

fernando · 8th June 2022, 06:48 PM

A transcript of written accounts of this amunition in my neck of the woods ... in the 1600's.

... For shorter distances, a hollow load filled with musket balls was used: the small-bullet bags. Quite effective against cavalry, as reported by Mateus Rodrigues, still on the subject of Telena's campaign in 1645:
(…) Soon the enemy came with all the cavalry, carrying us with great force and bringing two pieces between the same cavalry, with six mules each piece, who ran with them like the same cavalry, and as soon as they arrived at fire, they charged with them which did a lot of damage, because all our people were on a pinecone and couldn't help but kill many people, because due to the shot at close range.
Twenty years later, in the battle of Montes Claros, the use of hollow-load projectiles by Portuguese artillery is recorded:
(…) And the Count of S. João and the artillery general (…) ordered the artillery pieces, which were loaded with bags of small bullets, not to give the first charge, until the enemy was in the distance of fifty steps (…); and the damage they suffered was so remarkable that the battalions of the right flank, forced by fear, turned the half bodies of the horses with the appearance of wanting to flee (…).

8th June 2022, 09:48 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Ho my ... Rick ! The HMS Pearl looks like a colander !!! . Last edited by fernando; 8th June 2022 at 06:52 PM.

8th June 2022, 06:41 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Capn, it seems I had heard the term partridge shot, it seems more toward shotguns' ammo, clearly for gaming . Most of the entries I have seen use the term 'hail shot' (perhaps a French term as translated?) This was small shot as well as often added 'burr' from the sprues of casting from round shot. This was indeed most popularly used on the swivel guns on deck, and it seems was found in the breech block of one of those found on QAR. It seems these guns typically are not found in shipwreck sites as they are typically taken away in initial salvage (quickly accessed being on upper decks). It seems the sling type (as opposed to the shorter, stubby 'murderer' was more prevalent, especially later into 18th c. Rick I totally agree that the primary purpose of destroying rigging and mast structure was to render the vessel stationary for boarding before the main engagements . Shooting high seems well placed, as that damage would literally bring down considerable and notably heavy spars etc on crew causing initial carnage as well as damage. I suppose that the objective in a battle would be of consideration.....with pirates and privateers the objective was plunder....where in the case of a naval situation, destroying the mark and taking it out of the equation strategically would be key. Great analogy on the 'bowling alley' thing!!! Thats exactly what these low velocity round shot were as they slowly traveled through the air, and bounced and rolled as they made contact (pretty much like MY bowling rolls before they found the gutter Attached Images

8th June 2022, 06:48 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Bagged small shot in artillery A transcript of written accounts of this amunition in my neck of the woods ... in the 1600's. ... For shorter distances, a hollow load filled with musket balls was used: the small-bullet bags. Quite effective against cavalry, as reported by Mateus Rodrigues, still on the subject of Telena's campaign in 1645: (…) Soon the enemy came with all the cavalry, carrying us with great force and bringing two pieces between the same cavalry, with six mules each piece, who ran with them like the same cavalry, and as soon as they arrived at fire, they charged with them which did a lot of damage, because all our people were on a pinecone and couldn't help but kill many people, because due to the shot at close range. Twenty years later, in the battle of Montes Claros, the use of hollow-load projectiles by Portuguese artillery is recorded: (…) And the Count of S. João and the artillery general (…) ordered the artillery pieces, which were loaded with bags of small bullets, not to give the first charge, until the enemy was in the distance of fifty steps (…); and the damage they suffered was so remarkable that the battalions of the right flank, forced by fear, turned the half bodies of the horses with the appearance of wanting to flee (…).

8th June 2022, 02:00 AM	#1
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 553	Something about it made me think that it was a wooden plug or something along those lines while I was there, but actually, looking at the picture now you might be right! I must confess I did not study it in great detail as there wasn't much time left before closing by the time I got to it.

8th June 2022, 04:42 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I've seen other bar shot recovered with just the one ball and a 'spoke', if you will, of the remains of a bar. Here's a wedge-shot (what I call them) that also proved these were deadly anti-personnel weapons as well- https://ltwilliammowett.tumblr.com/p...isima-trinidad

8th June 2022, 06:11 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I have often heard that French warships fired high during an engagement so as to disable the rig and save the hull for prize whereas the Brits tended to fire at the vessel's hull; I'm sure this needs a grain or two of salt to digest. Still, I think the majority of injuries and death (pre boarding) were from the resulting splinters caused by the impact of the projectiles. Hence the gun deck(s) were referred to as the slaughterhouse. Imagine a raking broadside to the stern of the foe; the rounds went the entire length of the enemy vessel turning it into essentially an abattoir bowling alley with human pins. Here's a 18th century engraving of the encounter between HMS Pearl and the French frigate L'Esperance; you'll notice that her mizzen has been shot off, possibly as a result of bar or chain shot we have been discussing. Found in the wilds of Maine and presented here just for grins, and possibly as an illustration of the effectiveness of projectiles used to disable the rigging. A description of the action in 1780: The action of 30 September 1780 was a minor naval engagement off the Bermudas, where HMS Pearl captured Espérance, a French frigate of 32 guns launched in 1779.[1] HMS Pearl under the command of George Montagu was sent out to North America, and on 30 September 1780, soon encountered a frigate off the Bermudas. As Pearl closed Montagu cleared for action and engaged close for two hours, then maintained a running fight for a further two hours and more when the frigate struck.[2][3] The prize turned out to be the French frigate Espérance of about 850 tons of thirty-two guns consisting of twelve- and six-pounders, nearly 200 men and with a valuable cargo heading from Cape Francois to Bordeaux. Espérance lost 20 killed and 24 wounded as well as the crew and marines captured, while Pearl's losses were six killed and ten wounded. The captured French frigate was put into Royal Naval service and renamed HMS Clinton. Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 8th June 2022 at 06:10 PM.

11th June 2022, 04:23 PM	#9
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 343	I too have also read that the British tended to aim at the hull, or more accurately at the deck - not to sink the ship but to damage the guns and kill as many crew as possible prior to boarding, while the French aimed at the rigging to disable the ship to enable boarding. The variety of anti rigging shot in this thread is amazing. If the aiming strategy is correct then I wonder if the majority of this type of shot was of French/European manufacture rather than British. It is also surprising that there is not more evidence of the use of fire projectiles to burn sails and rigging. There are some drawings of 'frisbees' and fire arrows launched from small arms but not much else. Does anyone know anything more about fire projectiles? Remember that it was very hard to sink a wooden ship with the weapons of the day. There was nothing that could penetrate below the water and any shot coming through at the waterline could be plugged with wood and canvas and warships carried ready made plugs of the diameter of common sizes of shot. This probably only applied to smaller ships anyway. The Victory had sides two foot thick of solid oak and the USS Constitution was nicknamed 'old ironsides' for good reason. At the Battle of Trafalgar the British captured 20 ships but of the 73 ships involved in the battle only two were sunk and these by fire and explosion. Interestingly nature is not so limited as many ships that had been damaged in the battle were sunk in a storm a few days later. As early as 1807 Robert Fulton was testing, not very successfully, the first experimental torpedoes at the Washington Navy Yard.