15th century dagger with later blade

Villerica · 5th May 2022, 10:55 AM

Midelburgo . Are you suggesting that the grip is not genuine ?

corrado26 · 5th May 2022, 03:09 PM

I think at one side the dagger shows St. Sebastian (not St. Stephan) standing after having overcome his death under a baldachin and over the purgatory which is fired by heavy smoke coming from the hell. The other side shows a lady sitting on a lions back playing a harp over an Austrian coat of arms guarded by a grasshopper.
My idea................

Raf · 5th May 2022, 03:54 PM

Im tending to read the whole thing as a Dainty Device. A clever allegory that means something special to the owner , or giver , but not a lot to anybody else . The figure has to be Eros ; carefree youth crowned with flowers . Hence arrows and wings . Perhaps significantly protector of homosexual love . The female figure playing the Portative organ looks straight out of the Cluny tapestries . An allegory of hearing or sound. Also the lion. What we read as an eagle could be a parakeet , as in taste. The armorial device with the shield on its side could be read as something rejected or cast aside. From the gothiky architecture a fifteenth century date seems credible

Probably a wacky idea but following on the classical allusions and a superficial similarity to a Roman Gladius perhaps it was originally made as a symbolic sword with a wooden blade which was later converted. Its certainly a rare and fascinating thing

Waster , as in wooden sword . The youths of this city also have used on holy days after Evening prayer, at their masters’ doors, to exercise their wasters and bucklers.”Stowe 1598

Raf · 5th May 2022, 05:02 PM

Couple of wasters.

Villerica · 5th May 2022, 05:04 PM

I don't think that it was made for field use. It looks like a kind of wedding present . There's nothing about war in this. With the pommel it's not very practical to handle having said this there are 19th century swords that have eagle head pommels.

Raf · 5th May 2022, 08:16 PM

I agree. I didn't suggest it was ever intended as a practical weapon. Rather more , as you say a symbolic object.

cornelistromp · 6th May 2022, 10:25 AM

Looks good with the brass plate between the wood and the iron plate.

The condition of the blade is sublime, almost too good to be true, but I am not yet 100% convinced that it is a newer replaced blade because this geometry is quite uncommon however did occur in the 15 and 16th centuries @ Daggers!

best,

midelburgo · 6th May 2022, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Villerica

Midelburgo . Are you suggesting that the grip is not genuine ?

No. Romeo and Juliet play is by several sources suposed to take place in late XIVth or early XVth centuries, high gothic. And because of the carvings themes this could be the weapon of a lady. Therefore my comment.

Villerica · 6th May 2022, 06:55 PM

Yes . I think that this was intended for a lady going by the imagery on the hilt. If that is so then it is then possible that the blade is not for military use and this explains the highly unusual form and so it could just be original to the hilt.

I would have thought that remounting would have been very difficult.

So maybe this is a dagger for lady in which case would make it highly rare if not unique.

Villerica · 6th May 2022, 07:20 PM

Yes !

I think that this was not made for a man given the imagery on the hilt.
So it can only be a "lady dagger" . This being the case then it could be possible that the blade is original as you wouldn't necessarily expect to see a classic war blade.

It would be nice to be more sure about this object as it would seem to be something quite exceptional.

Thank you all for your thoughts and observations.

5th May 2022, 03:09 PM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	I think at one side the dagger shows St. Sebastian (not St. Stephan) standing after having overcome his death under a baldachin and over the purgatory which is fired by heavy smoke coming from the hell. The other side shows a lady sitting on a lions back playing a harp over an Austrian coat of arms guarded by a grasshopper. My idea................ Attached Images

5th May 2022, 03:54 PM	#3
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	Im tending to read the whole thing as a Dainty Device. A clever allegory that means something special to the owner , or giver , but not a lot to anybody else . The figure has to be Eros ; carefree youth crowned with flowers . Hence arrows and wings . Perhaps significantly protector of homosexual love . The female figure playing the Portative organ looks straight out of the Cluny tapestries . An allegory of hearing or sound. Also the lion. What we read as an eagle could be a parakeet , as in taste. The armorial device with the shield on its side could be read as something rejected or cast aside. From the gothiky architecture a fifteenth century date seems credible Probably a wacky idea but following on the classical allusions and a superficial similarity to a Roman Gladius perhaps it was originally made as a symbolic sword with a wooden blade which was later converted. Its certainly a rare and fascinating thing Waster , as in wooden sword . The youths of this city also have used on holy days after Evening prayer, at their masters’ doors, to exercise their wasters and bucklers.”Stowe 1598 Last edited by Raf; 5th May 2022 at 04:07 PM. Reason: inf. added

5th May 2022, 05:02 PM	#4
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	Couple of wasters. Attached Images

6th May 2022, 10:25 AM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Looks good with the brass plate between the wood and the iron plate. The condition of the blade is sublime, almost too good to be true, but I am not yet 100% convinced that it is a newer replaced blade because this geometry is quite uncommon however did occur in the 15 and 16th centuries @ Daggers! best, Attached Images

5th May 2022, 10:55 AM	#1
Villerica Member Join Date: Sep 2020 Posts: 26	Midelburgo . Are you suggesting that the grip is not genuine ?

5th May 2022, 05:04 PM	#5
Villerica Member Join Date: Sep 2020 Posts: 26	I don't think that it was made for field use. It looks like a kind of wedding present . There's nothing about war in this. With the pommel it's not very practical to handle having said this there are 19th century swords that have eagle head pommels.

5th May 2022, 08:16 PM	#6
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	I agree. I didn't suggest it was ever intended as a practical weapon. Rather more , as you say a symbolic object.

6th May 2022, 06:55 PM	#9
Villerica Member Join Date: Sep 2020 Posts: 26	Yes . I think that this was intended for a lady going by the imagery on the hilt. If that is so then it is then possible that the blade is not for military use and this explains the highly unusual form and so it could just be original to the hilt. I would have thought that remounting would have been very difficult. So maybe this is a dagger for lady in which case would make it highly rare if not unique.

6th May 2022, 07:20 PM	#10
Villerica Member Join Date: Sep 2020 Posts: 26	Yes ! I think that this was not made for a man given the imagery on the hilt. So it can only be a "lady dagger" . This being the case then it could be possible that the blade is original as you wouldn't necessarily expect to see a classic war blade. It would be nice to be more sure about this object as it would seem to be something quite exceptional. Thank you all for your thoughts and observations.