Solingen steel

urbanspaceman · 6th March 2022, 10:41 AM

Can anyone point me in the direction of metallurgical research done to ascertain the reasons why Solingen/Germany produced such consistently superior blades?

Equally, can anyone explain why Toledo needed to reinforce their bladesmiths with Solingen craftsmen back in 1587?

fernando · 6th March 2022, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Can anyone point me in the direction of metallurgical research done to ascertain the reasons why Solingen/Germany produced such consistently superior blades?

Equally, can anyone explain why Toledo needed to reinforce their bladesmiths with Solingen craftsmen back in 1587?

A pity that i lost the email address of German Dueñas Beraiz, an expert in this Toledan sword smiths area. I have tried to redirect the question thRough the ToLedo Military Museum, where he is connected but, i am not so optimism over success.
Meanwhile i took the liberty to send you by email some lose notes on the endless process of Toledo forging ... and not only; written by the said German Dueñas Beraiz.

Keep safe.

.

urbanspaceman · 6th March 2022, 03:01 PM

Thank-you Fernando, I will read with interest.

fernando · 9th March 2022, 11:19 AM

In opposition to museums often 'forgeting' to answer our questions, this time a quick response arrived ...

"Buenas tardes, me disculpen las molestias.
Sucede que perdí la dirección de correo electrónico del Sr. Germán Dueñas Beraiz, y les pido por favor que dirijan este correo a ese señor "

Good afternoon, i apologize for the inconvenience.
It happens that i lost the email address of Mr. Germán Dueñas Beraiz, and I ask you to please address this email to that Gentleman.

" Respecto a los espaderos de Toledo, alguien en mi foro de armas antiguas ha citado una información de que, hacia 1587, Toledo consideró necesario reforzar el número de sus espaderos con artesanos llegados de Solingen.
Piensa el Sr. Beraiz que esto realmente sucedió … y en el contexto mencionado ? “

Regarding the swordsmiths of Toledo, someone in my antique weapons forum has cited information that, around 1587, Toledo considered it necessary to reinforce the number of its swordsmiths with artisans from Solingen.
Does Mr. Beraiz think that this really happened… and in the mentioned context ?

En relación a su consulta decir que no existe constancia documental de la presencia de espaderos procedentes de Solingen en los talleres toledanos de finales del XVI. Resulta muy improbable su presencia teniendo en cuenta el sistema de producción artesanal de los espaderos toledanos, que artesanos extranjeros trabajaran en Toledo en las fechas citadas.

In relation to your query, to say that there is no documentary evidence of the presence of swordsmiths from Solingen in the Toledo workshops at the end of the 16th century. It results highly unlikely, taking into account the artisanal production system of Toledo swordsmiths, that foreign craftsmen worked in Toledo on the dates mentioned.

(Mister Beraiz is the Chief Curator of the Arms Department in the Toledo Army Museum)

urbanspaceman · 10th March 2022, 01:05 PM

Thank-you Fernando.
I have found it unwise to trust everything in Bezdek's research absolutely but these are the details he gives based on Solingen parish and guild records; these are the departure dates:

1547: Andreas Munsten zu Elberfeld; 1565: Ceiles Lobach; 1580: Heinrich Kohl; 1600: Hans Ohlig; 1620: Clemens Dinger the Elder.

Munsten was an armourer (?)
Lobach is listed as produing swept and cup hilt rapiers.
Kohl was a hilt maker.
Dinger and Ohlig were grinders.

fernando · 10th March 2022, 01:19 PM

Now you may filter yourself !
Mind you, this could be a question of approach; that some Solingen smiths decided to migrate to Spain (Toledo) as a personal option, it is not that it was Toledo guild (no factory yet, right ?) that contract them to reinforce their ranks.
In fact, the table built by Palomares includes a Andrès Munestèn (position #8), as having worked both in Toledo and Calatayiud; we know that his brother Peter migrated to Hownslow.

See notes by Wendelin Boeheim (Leipsig 1890).

.

urbanspaceman · 10th March 2022, 10:19 PM

Yes, Fernando, it seems more appropriate to mark these men as moving out of their own volition rather than being sent-for.
ps
call me Keith.

6th March 2022, 10:41 AM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Solingen/Germany/Toledo research Can anyone point me in the direction of metallurgical research done to ascertain the reasons why Solingen/Germany produced such consistently superior blades? Equally, can anyone explain why Toledo needed to reinforce their bladesmiths with Solingen craftsmen back in 1587?

6th March 2022, 03:01 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Toledo notes Thank-you Fernando, I will read with interest.

9th March 2022, 11:19 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	a pleasant surprise In opposition to museums often 'forgeting' to answer our questions, this time a quick response arrived ... "Buenas tardes, me disculpen las molestias. Sucede que perdí la dirección de correo electrónico del Sr. Germán Dueñas Beraiz, y les pido por favor que dirijan este correo a ese señor " Good afternoon, i apologize for the inconvenience. It happens that i lost the email address of Mr. Germán Dueñas Beraiz, and I ask you to please address this email to that Gentleman. " Respecto a los espaderos de Toledo, alguien en mi foro de armas antiguas ha citado una información de que, hacia 1587, Toledo consideró necesario reforzar el número de sus espaderos con artesanos llegados de Solingen. Piensa el Sr. Beraiz que esto realmente sucedió … y en el contexto mencionado ? “ Regarding the swordsmiths of Toledo, someone in my antique weapons forum has cited information that, around 1587, Toledo considered it necessary to reinforce the number of its swordsmiths with artisans from Solingen. Does Mr. Beraiz think that this really happened… and in the mentioned context ? En relación a su consulta decir que no existe constancia documental de la presencia de espaderos procedentes de Solingen en los talleres toledanos de finales del XVI. Resulta muy improbable su presencia teniendo en cuenta el sistema de producción artesanal de los espaderos toledanos, que artesanos extranjeros trabajaran en Toledo en las fechas citadas. In relation to your query, to say that there is no documentary evidence of the presence of swordsmiths from Solingen in the Toledo workshops at the end of the 16th century. It results highly unlikely, taking into account the artisanal production system of Toledo swordsmiths, that foreign craftsmen worked in Toledo on the dates mentioned. (Mister Beraiz is the Chief Curator of the Arms Department in the Toledo Army Museum)

10th March 2022, 01:05 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Toledo and Germans Thank-you Fernando. I have found it unwise to trust everything in Bezdek's research absolutely but these are the details he gives based on Solingen parish and guild records; these are the departure dates: 1547: Andreas Munsten zu Elberfeld; 1565: Ceiles Lobach; 1580: Heinrich Kohl; 1600: Hans Ohlig; 1620: Clemens Dinger the Elder. Munsten was an armourer (?) Lobach is listed as produing swept and cup hilt rapiers. Kohl was a hilt maker. Dinger and Ohlig were grinders.

10th March 2022, 01:19 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Now you may filter yourself ! Mind you, this could be a question of approach; that some Solingen smiths decided to migrate to Spain (Toledo) as a personal option, it is not that it was Toledo guild (no factory yet, right ?) that contract them to reinforce their ranks. In fact, the table built by Palomares includes a Andrès Munestèn (position #8), as having worked both in Toledo and Calatayiud; we know that his brother Peter migrated to Hownslow. See notes by Wendelin Boeheim (Leipsig 1890). . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 10th March 2022 at 03:19 PM.

10th March 2022, 10:19 PM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Toledo Yes, Fernando, it seems more appropriate to mark these men as moving out of their own volition rather than being sent-for. ps call me Keith.