1822 British Lancer Mameluke

Bryce · 3rd February 2022, 12:28 AM

Here is another example with a Persian? wootz blade, silver gilt mounts and leather scabbard.
Cheers,
Bryce

Bryce · 3rd February 2022, 02:44 AM

Here is one marked to an officer of the 82nd regiment of foot.
Cheers,
Bryce

JT88 · 3rd February 2022, 01:24 PM

Two good examples Bryce, is the first one marked to anyone? It does appear maybe to be a shamshir but Osman would know for sure.

Did either of these have dates? The few examples of leather worked scabbards are claimed to be before the 1822 regulation. All of the swords I've seen after are metal/velvet scabbards.

As for the .. let's call them acanthus leaves, that's what Cribb called them on the scabbard, this design I have solely seen on Lancer's marked blades see Dellar Pg 111-112 fig 12.6-7 12.9-10.

The other assumption we can possibly make is a timeframe, the blades in Dellar post about 1837 become slimmer and I would assume more a dress blade/ceremonial role instead of fighting blade Dellar fig 12.11-16. The same type of transformation the USN officer sword underwent in 1872.

So, a piece of this puzzle I cannot find maybe you can help with is the 1822 dress regulation written in full. Dellar paraphrases it, saying "the 9th, 12th, and 16th Lancer units were prescribed a "mameluke hilted" sword with a plain metal scabbard fr dress wear and a velvet-covered scabbard for full dress."

This adds to the evidence this sword is likely pre-1822 regulation with the leather. Or the leather was replaced, the leather does show a lot of age, so I take back my previous comments saying it could pre-regulation.

Bryce · 3rd February 2022, 09:24 PM

The first one was hall marked but I can't remember what the date was. I think it was in the range 1810-20. The second is dateable by the maker to 1813-17. Just to further emphasize how difficult your task to pin your sword to a particular regiment is, here is a mameluke in my collection marked to a Grenadier officer in the 45th regiment of foot circa 1811/12. It has a steel scabbard, but who is to say it didn't also have a leather scabbard for dress wear? I have seen this same type of hilt on several examples marked to cavalry officers. You are right in that the style of the scabbard bands on your sword are similar to those found on several examples marked to Lancer regiments, but there are also plenty of examples of other swords marked to Lancer regiments, with different styles of scabbard bands and hilts. Also the examples of lancer marked swords with the same scabbard bands as yours that I have seen, also have the same design on the cross guard, which yours doesn't. I am not saying that your sword didn't belong to a Lancer officer, it certainly could have, but it could also have belonged to an officer of any number of other regiments.
Cheers,
Bryce

JT88 · 4th February 2022, 04:26 AM

Fair points. At this point I think we can only break it down into knowns, possibilities and unknowns:

Known: ivory handle, ottoman blade 16-17th century by characteristics

Possibility: made pre 1822 regulation due to leather scabbard, Lancers by designs on scabbard

Unknown: maker of blade, maker of sheath

I think the designs on the scabbard NOT being found on anything other Lancers swords is semi-evidence of Lancer ownership. The regulation about scabbard material also points to pre-1822.

Incredible sword, was hoping to find more sources but doesn’t seem to be a ton on these anywhere. Dellars companion volume is in the mail.

kronckew · 4th February 2022, 02:41 PM

Bryce, I love that pipeback sword with the feathered tip!

I recall Prosser made similar wide pipebacks for officers in the very early 19c.

Bryce · 4th February 2022, 09:13 PM

I just found this image in my files. I don't know the source. It appears to have a Persian shamshir blade and the cross guard and scabbard bands associated with lancers.

G'day Kronckew,
The 45th regiment mameluke is by Prosser. Here is a shot of two quillpoints in my collection. The bottom celtic hilt is also marked to Prosser, while the mameluke is unmarked.
Cheers,
Bryce

3rd February 2022, 12:28 AM	#1
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 187	Here is another example with a Persian? wootz blade, silver gilt mounts and leather scabbard. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

3rd February 2022, 02:44 AM	#2
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 187	Here is one marked to an officer of the 82nd regiment of foot. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

3rd February 2022, 01:24 PM	#3
JT88 Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 52	Two good examples Bryce, is the first one marked to anyone? It does appear maybe to be a shamshir but Osman would know for sure. Did either of these have dates? The few examples of leather worked scabbards are claimed to be before the 1822 regulation. All of the swords I've seen after are metal/velvet scabbards. As for the .. let's call them acanthus leaves, that's what Cribb called them on the scabbard, this design I have solely seen on Lancer's marked blades see Dellar Pg 111-112 fig 12.6-7 12.9-10. The other assumption we can possibly make is a timeframe, the blades in Dellar post about 1837 become slimmer and I would assume more a dress blade/ceremonial role instead of fighting blade Dellar fig 12.11-16. The same type of transformation the USN officer sword underwent in 1872. So, a piece of this puzzle I cannot find maybe you can help with is the 1822 dress regulation written in full. Dellar paraphrases it, saying "the 9th, 12th, and 16th Lancer units were prescribed a "mameluke hilted" sword with a plain metal scabbard fr dress wear and a velvet-covered scabbard for full dress." This adds to the evidence this sword is likely pre-1822 regulation with the leather. Or the leather was replaced, the leather does show a lot of age, so I take back my previous comments saying it could pre-regulation. Last edited by JT88; 3rd February 2022 at 01:36 PM.

3rd February 2022, 09:24 PM	#4
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 187	The first one was hall marked but I can't remember what the date was. I think it was in the range 1810-20. The second is dateable by the maker to 1813-17. Just to further emphasize how difficult your task to pin your sword to a particular regiment is, here is a mameluke in my collection marked to a Grenadier officer in the 45th regiment of foot circa 1811/12. It has a steel scabbard, but who is to say it didn't also have a leather scabbard for dress wear? I have seen this same type of hilt on several examples marked to cavalry officers. You are right in that the style of the scabbard bands on your sword are similar to those found on several examples marked to Lancer regiments, but there are also plenty of examples of other swords marked to Lancer regiments, with different styles of scabbard bands and hilts. Also the examples of lancer marked swords with the same scabbard bands as yours that I have seen, also have the same design on the cross guard, which yours doesn't. I am not saying that your sword didn't belong to a Lancer officer, it certainly could have, but it could also have belonged to an officer of any number of other regiments. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

4th February 2022, 09:13 PM	#7
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 187	I just found this image in my files. I don't know the source. It appears to have a Persian shamshir blade and the cross guard and scabbard bands associated with lancers. G'day Kronckew, The 45th regiment mameluke is by Prosser. Here is a shot of two quillpoints in my collection. The bottom celtic hilt is also marked to Prosser, while the mameluke is unmarked. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

4th February 2022, 04:26 AM	#5
JT88 Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 52	Fair points. At this point I think we can only break it down into knowns, possibilities and unknowns: Known: ivory handle, ottoman blade 16-17th century by characteristics Possibility: made pre 1822 regulation due to leather scabbard, Lancers by designs on scabbard Unknown: maker of blade, maker of sheath I think the designs on the scabbard NOT being found on anything other Lancers swords is semi-evidence of Lancer ownership. The regulation about scabbard material also points to pre-1822. Incredible sword, was hoping to find more sources but doesn’t seem to be a ton on these anywhere. Dellars companion volume is in the mail.

4th February 2022, 02:41 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	Bryce, I love that pipeback sword with the feathered tip! I recall Prosser made similar wide pipebacks for officers in the very early 19c.