1822 British Lancer Mameluke

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by JT88

The bottom is what we could call a “Pala” have one of those as well

As for the Indian manufacture of Turkic style, Osman seems pretty sure it is not.

I think perhaps I was distracted by the fact that the Mughal dynasty was founded by Babur (1483-1530), of Chagatai Turkic descent. Also the tulwar I showed has a somewhat (?) similar style of blade. The probable provenance of the 'mameluke' saber we are discussing is unlikely without any sort of defining markings or blade inscriptions.
As shown are British sabers with this type of stepped point blade along with an Indian tulwar with this Turkic 'style' blade, used traditionally through the 18th century. The British of course ruled in India until 1947. Many British officers favored Indian blades which were often diplomatically acquired.

Though the blade style is of early 'form' it is certainly not 15th or 16th c. but could be 17th-18th.
The Ottoman kilic shown with pistol grip has similar blade profile as those in India, Mughals often recognized Mughal influences.
The Ottomans had Turkic ancestry just as the Mughals.

[Bryce]

As I said earlier, these types of mamelukes were not just confined to Lancer officers. Robert Dighton Jnr produced several iliustrations of Hussar and Light Dragoon officers carrying thses swords in the early 1800's. Here is one showing an officer of the 10th Hussars 1805.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Richard G]

Here, I hope, are some pictures of Lord Lieutenants etc. with their mamelukes.

[Richard G]

When you consider the history of these lancer regiments, who all spent time in India, it seems an Indian blade is more likely. If it is an Ottoman blade then possibly a diplomatic (civilian) origin becomes more likely.
Regards
Richard

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Along a similar vein, a late 17thC early 18thC Indian Tulwar and a mid 19thC Austrian cavalry sword with an earlier, probably 18thC, Austrian made blade in the Ottoman style. Not too difficult to imagine a British Indian Army officer appropriating a similar Tulwar blade for remounting as an instant Mameluke style sabre as per fashion of the time. Equally Austro/Hungarian officers had blades made in the 'Ottoman fashion' and I have seen a few apart from my own pictured here. This Austrian one has evidence of applied gold highlights on the script although now sadly all but gone.
Regards,
Norman.

[Will M]

This mameluke has a fighting blade, not a dress blade for politicians. Generals and high political position 1831p swords usually have slender blades for dress. One must consider the aspects era of the blade, hilt, scabbard and in my opinion this sword does not fit into civilian use such as Lord Lieutenants, it would be a great stretch to fit this sword into that category. We must use the particular attributes of this sword to come to a conclusion rather than distant probabilities. This sword like many can only say so much, if only they could talk?

[O. Baskurt]

I think main question here is... Is it really belong to Indian Lancers. As for Austrian Turkic style sabers yes i ve seen and inspected some of them either. The problem about them they dont have true aspects of Ottoman swords they look a like but even writings are kind of made up on them ( inscriptions ) and even people who can read sometimes cant read them at all cuz it doesnt make sense also ornanets and floral patterns are way too off as well as Proportions of blade is way too off either. Jack's blade has perfect proportions of Ottoman form smooth lines true style ornaments and writings all point out Ottoman work rather than Indian or any other but there is also possibilities everytime in life and one of them are being Safavid work. Some Safavid masters were nice kilic makers too most of us see their works on Shamshir and might think about this way only but no they had kilic blades too and they were nice and good at it as well ( i am not talking about 19th century or 18th century revival works those are kind of different topic ). And these kilic blades were totally same featured with Ottoman blades also used by Ottomans too. And many many Safavid masters worked in Ottoman Empire as a kilic maker. ( i have lists of all smiths from 15th to 19th century because they were all needed to recorded in governement due to they produce weapon) Thats why i have no doubts this blade is not Tulwar blade at all it is purely as form Ottoman or Safavid made Ottoman kilic. Portions smooth lines ornaments patterns of wootz blade and many other suits to this perfectly.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Will M

... 1831 swords usually have slender blades for dress. ...

Yup, Politicians would never need to actually use a sword, and a smart general stays behind the front lines in a battle (but should visit the troops there before & after). Generals who get killed are an instant disaster for their side. Like the death of CSA's General 'Stonewall' Jackson from friendly fire and the Union Major General John Sedgwick who visited the front during a battle, was told to keep his head down as the Confederates had snipers shooting at them. He said "Nonsense, They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist" and collapsed dead from a head shot. The CSA had a few Whitworth sniper rifles, and one may have accounted for the Yankee General, highest ranking officer killed in that war.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Yup, Politicians would never need to actually use a sword, and a smart general stays behind the front lines in a battle (but should visit the troops there before & after). Generals who get killed are an instant disaster for their side. Like the death of CSA's General 'Stonewall' Jackson from friendly fire and the Union Major General John Sedgwick who visited the front during a battle, was told to keep his head down as the Confederates had snipers shooting at them. He said "Nonsense, They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist" and collapsed dead from a head shot. The CSA had a few Whitworth sniper rifles, and one may have accounted for the Yankee General, highest ranking officer killed in that war.

Gentlemen, please. You are confusing modern-day sentiments with those of two centuries ago. In the time that Jim's sabre belongs to, General Officers and their staff were very much on the battlefield and had, on occasion the need to defend themselves with their swords. Napoleon and Wellington were very much present at Waterloo.

As for the American Civil war example, again not applicable in the time that we are discussing. Firearms technology had improved significantly in the intervening fourty years.