1822 British Lancer Mameluke

[kronckew]

For reference, the UK 1831 pattern Mameluke sword for general officers of Major General and higher ranks. It is a current pattern. Note the yelman-like false edge on the tip area. I believe the current scabbards are steel, with brass suspension ring fittings. They are of course, unsharpened so the Generals won't hurt themselves, or anyone else.

[JT88]

Thank you for the replies Jim and Kronk!

I'll have to ask my Turkish expert friend again, he was able to translate the writing on the edge. He called the blade-style "Classical Ottoman" from the 16th-17th century. I can ask him if he for sure thinks it's Ottoman or of an Indian make.

I have Richard Dellar's original book but have just ordered his companion volume which I've heard is better for this subject. Are there any other books you know of that may be useful here?

It is an incredible sword, I am still working on restoring the wootz. It has acted very differently than my Ottoman Pala which was very sensitive to etching. This steel is incredibly difficult to bring out the wootz even with a strong etchant and I've had success with polishing it afterward to bring out some of the patterns.

From what I can tell I do not think I will be able to discern by characteristics exactly which lancer unit this belonged to. It is an incredible sword, its owner/creator spared no expense.

[Bryce]

G'day JT88,
Without any sort of marking it is impossible to identify what sort of officer owned your sword. It wasn't just Lancer officers who carried them. It could have been carried by any cavalry officer (light or heavy) or senior (or even not so senior but well-off!) army officer.

What makes you think the blade could be as early as 15th century? If you want to learn more about the blade it would be a good idea to post some better photos over on the Ethnographic Weapons forum. There are several people who frequent that forum who know a lot about these type of blades.

Cheers,
Bryce

[JT88]

The fittings are described as generic lancer fittings from what I’ve seen. But anyone with the money especially to mount such a special blade could essentially do what they want. These swords originally had velvet on the scabbard. Too bad it’s gone, the color could clue to which unit.

I have a Turkish smith buddy who specializes in classical Ottoman weapons. He says it is 16th-17th century maybe early 18th. Ottomans transition to more what we would call a “pala” in that timeframe.

Also the type of writing on the side lends a clue, it is an older Turkish dialect he says.

I’ve been working on the wootz today, carefully balancing leaving the aging and bringing out the wootz. It’s incredible quality of wootz, wait til I post some photos of it. Puts my pala to shame.

[Richard G]

I would like to further expand Bryce's point that mamelukes were not restricted to Lancer regiments. They were also not restricted to the army, or military in general. They were, and still are, in common use by civilians when in uniform. Thus British Governor Generals, Lieutenant Governors, Lord Lieutenants etc. when 'suited and booted' would all typically carry a mameluke. When you remember the extent of the British Empire you realise there were a fair few of these. Even now senior diplomatic staff carry a sword (generally a court or small sword), but also possibly mamelukes in the past. When you consider that prior to independence there were 584 Princeley States in the British Raj in India, each having a British Political Officer and probably staff you can conceive there must have been a market of sorts for such swords.
As this sword has no markings and no indications of military origins I wouldn't rule out it being a civilian sword.
Best wishes
Richard
PS. If British, I would generally expect to see a cutler's name on the locket. But I am sure exceptions do exist.

[awdaniec666]

I attach some examples of turkish blades from different times.

Images 1-3: 15th century (All Topkapi Museum Instanbul)

Image 4-5: 16th - 17th century (Mueso de la real armeria, Madrid + Badisches Landesmuseum, Karlsruhe)

Image 6: 18th century (Badisches Landesmuseum, Karlsruhe)

Note the older the blade, the more prominent the so called "hammer" by the yelman.
Good luck in your research.

Source: W.Zablocki - Ciecia prawdziwa szabla.

[JT88]

Thanks for the responses!

Every example I can find with these type of fittings is attributed to a lancer regiment. Civilian use possibility I don’t think is very high unless the owner straight imitated the lancer regimental style. There is such a wide range of non-uniform Mamelukes attributed to both the British and French I simply don’t think it likely it’s owner imitated a lancers.

Fullers on the older blades? That is generally a western style. I have seen none of such coming from eastern influence. Later palas have the T spine style as mine does from the 18-19th century. This yelman style is from likely the 17th century. I misspoke he believes it is 16-17th century. The swords skin itself was quite old, it had active rust on multiple locations which I removed and what appeared to be possible plating in a couple places that also had rust under it thus I removed it. I am nearly complete with it, just needs some finishing touches and I can post some better photos.

Regards