A Pair of English Swords?

Radboud · 22nd January 2022, 07:07 PM

Thanks for the additional photos, is there any leather remaining on the grip? Also what is the length of the grip?

drac2k · 22nd January 2022, 07:13 PM

Almost all of the leather and the handle is 5" long.

Radboud · 22nd January 2022, 07:54 PM

Thanks, photos can be deceiving when trying to gauge proportions and it looked small. 5 inches is an appropriate outside grip length.

Without wanting to be malicious my concerns with this sword are:
1. The blade profile is wrong for a 1796 patten Light cavalry sword. The tip should become broader at the end. They flare out.
2. There is too much ricasso before the fuller starts.
3. The langets are missing. As you have pointed out, sometimes these did break off but there is no evidence of that on your sword.
4. The Quillon is too short.
5. The grip ferrul (the band between the leather and the guard) is too broad and the fit poor.
6. Trooper swords didn’t have grip wire, and Officer swords (when present) the wire was silver or silver plated and finer than what is present here.
7. The fit of the blade to the handle is poor, like they do not belong together.
8. The overall fit and shape of the grip and blade is poor especially if it is an officer’s sword.
9. The knuckle guard is too thick for a British 1796.

If I purchased this recently and it was sold to me as a British 1796 pattern light cavalry, I would take it back.

Radboud · 22nd January 2022, 08:13 PM

Unfortunately I only have two 1796 LCs to show you what I mean, and forum rules prevent the posting of photos from Auctions and dealer sites.

But hopefully these will help give an impression.

1. Officer (Cornet) of the Yeomanry 1796 made by Gill, dates to the end of this patterns life, about 1817 - 1818.

This is a very light sword weighing 750grams. The blade starts at 40mm wide, narrows to 35mm and then broadens out to 40mm again at the last part. Thickness is 7.4mm to 1.5mm

Radboud · 22nd January 2022, 08:18 PM

2. Officers 1796 Pattern light cavalry by Osborn dating to before 1800:

This a stouter sword, that weighs 900 grams, the blade width at the ricasso is 35mm, pinches in to 33mm in the middle before flaring out to 41mm near the tip. The thickness is 10.2mm down to 1.5mm

Radboud · 22nd January 2022, 08:26 PM

This last sword is not a British 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry.

It is a Dutch m1813 No.1 Light Cavalry Troopers sabre, and nicely illustrates the problem with other nations use of this sword type. The m1813 No.1 is a close copy of the 1796 pattern, with many even being British made 1796s sold to the Kingdom of the Netherlands in 1813 - 1814.

But my sword is from the second batch ordered by the Dutch Government from makers in Solingen. It is a near perfect copy of the 1796 pattern and the only reliable way to tell them apart is by the presence of Dutch markings on the grip, spine and scabbard.

It is also a heavy sword, 990 grams, width at ricasso is 41mm narrows to 35mm then flares to 43mm. Blade thickness is 9mm to 1.9mm

drac2k · 22nd January 2022, 08:37 PM

You have 2 beautiful swords there Radboud! I didn't pay much for the sword and the vendor who sold me the item really thought it was such an item. I like it for what it is, an old copy, possibly Indian, of an LC 1796, and if I can ever decipher the arsenal mark that would be great. I have a policy that if the items are worth more than what I paid for them, I don't give the seller extra money, that is my gain and if they are worth less than what I paid, that amount goes towards my education.LOL.

Radboud · 22nd January 2022, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

You have 2 beautiful swords there Radboud!

Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

I like it for what it is, an old copy, possibly Indian, of an LC 1796, and if I can ever decipher the arsenal mark that would be great.

Good on you. At the end of the day, this is all that matters. So much more than the opinion of some random on the internet.

22nd January 2022, 08:13 PM	#4
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 276	Unfortunately I only have two 1796 LCs to show you what I mean, and forum rules prevent the posting of photos from Auctions and dealer sites. But hopefully these will help give an impression. 1. Officer (Cornet) of the Yeomanry 1796 made by Gill, dates to the end of this patterns life, about 1817 - 1818. This is a very light sword weighing 750grams. The blade starts at 40mm wide, narrows to 35mm and then broadens out to 40mm again at the last part. Thickness is 7.4mm to 1.5mm Attached Images

22nd January 2022, 08:18 PM	#5
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 276	2. Officers 1796 Pattern light cavalry by Osborn dating to before 1800: This a stouter sword, that weighs 900 grams, the blade width at the ricasso is 35mm, pinches in to 33mm in the middle before flaring out to 41mm near the tip. The thickness is 10.2mm down to 1.5mm Attached Images

22nd January 2022, 08:26 PM	#6
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 276	This last sword is not a British 1796 Pattern Light Cavalry. It is a Dutch m1813 No.1 Light Cavalry Troopers sabre, and nicely illustrates the problem with other nations use of this sword type. The m1813 No.1 is a close copy of the 1796 pattern, with many even being British made 1796s sold to the Kingdom of the Netherlands in 1813 - 1814. But my sword is from the second batch ordered by the Dutch Government from makers in Solingen. It is a near perfect copy of the 1796 pattern and the only reliable way to tell them apart is by the presence of Dutch markings on the grip, spine and scabbard. It is also a heavy sword, 990 grams, width at ricasso is 41mm narrows to 35mm then flares to 43mm. Blade thickness is 9mm to 1.9mm Attached Images

22nd January 2022, 07:07 PM	#1
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 276	Thanks for the additional photos, is there any leather remaining on the grip? Also what is the length of the grip?

22nd January 2022, 07:13 PM	#2
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	Almost all of the leather and the handle is 5" long.

22nd January 2022, 07:54 PM	#3
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 276	Thanks, photos can be deceiving when trying to gauge proportions and it looked small. 5 inches is an appropriate outside grip length. Without wanting to be malicious my concerns with this sword are: 1. The blade profile is wrong for a 1796 patten Light cavalry sword. The tip should become broader at the end. They flare out. 2. There is too much ricasso before the fuller starts. 3. The langets are missing. As you have pointed out, sometimes these did break off but there is no evidence of that on your sword. 4. The Quillon is too short. 5. The grip ferrul (the band between the leather and the guard) is too broad and the fit poor. 6. Trooper swords didn’t have grip wire, and Officer swords (when present) the wire was silver or silver plated and finer than what is present here. 7. The fit of the blade to the handle is poor, like they do not belong together. 8. The overall fit and shape of the grip and blade is poor especially if it is an officer’s sword. 9. The knuckle guard is too thick for a British 1796. If I purchased this recently and it was sold to me as a British 1796 pattern light cavalry, I would take it back.

22nd January 2022, 08:37 PM	#7
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	You have 2 beautiful swords there Radboud! I didn't pay much for the sword and the vendor who sold me the item really thought it was such an item. I like it for what it is, an old copy, possibly Indian, of an LC 1796, and if I can ever decipher the arsenal mark that would be great. I have a policy that if the items are worth more than what I paid for them, I don't give the seller extra money, that is my gain and if they are worth less than what I paid, that amount goes towards my education.LOL.