interesting sawfish sword

IainN · 7th June 2006, 03:28 PM

Thanks n2s.

Doing a little more surfing I came up with this entry from the Australian Museums Online site:

Quote:

Picture -- no image available --
Title
Object Catagory Artefact
Object Type Ceremonial Item - Sacred item
Creator Iatmul (language)
Description 18 inches long and damaged at the tip, and has in addition a 7 inch handle. / Sawfish. These are used ceremonially in a very long ceremony. It has apparently been coated with a black substance. See also 2997.
Key Search Ceremonial Item / Sacred item / Iatmul (language)
Associated Places Papua New Guinea / East Sepik
Date JUN 1953
Item ID 2996
References
Institute University of Queensland: Anthropology Museum

A little googling didn't turn up any "very long" ceremonies that noted sawfish bills but it is certainly a clue as to use at least in Papua New Guinea.

fearn · 7th June 2006, 04:20 PM

Hi Tim,

You may well be right about the authenticity of the first sawfish bill.

As for this one, it's good to have n2s's information about the sawfish bills in Valparaiso. It makes a fair amount of sense. Given the CITES rules (all sawfish are, I believe, listed species), I don't think I'd try to bring one back to the US.

As for steel tools in Oceania, when they came in depends on where you are. Stone tools are still (or were very recently) used one one or two small islands (google on tepuke for an example of canoe building), while the Hawaiians were reshaping iron from nails and bolts very early on. They got the metal through trading with sailors and scavenging wrecks, and taught themselves the rest.

Basically, I would guess that a piece could have been made with stone tools before ~1850 in Polynesia or Micronesia (depending on contact date), before 1900 in most of oceanic Melanesia, and before ~1950 in highland PNG (remember that many of the last were contacted until the 1930s or later). In general, steel tools make finer and more complex wood work possible. For instance, the scrolls on the current piece would be very difficult to chip out with a bone chisel.

F

VANDOO · 7th June 2006, 04:50 PM

THE AFRICAN EXAMPLE LINKED BY Iainn IS WHAT I WOULD EXPECT A NATIVE MADE WEAPON USING A SAWFISH OR SWORDFISH BILL TO LOOK LIKE. CLUBS WHICH WERE THE MAIN STRIKING WEAPON THROUGHOUT OCEANA DO NOT HAVE GAURDS SO WHY WOULD THEY GO TO ALL THE EXTRA TROUBLE OF MAKEING ONE UNLESS IT WAS DUE TO EUROPEAN INFLUENCE. IT ALSO WOULD MAKE THE SWORD WEAKER AND HEAVIER AT THE HANDLE AND MORE DIFFICULT TO USE WITH BOTH HANDS.

I ALSO SUSPECT THAT MANY OF THESE MAY COME FROM AFRICA AS THERE ARE VERY MANY LARGE SAWFISH IN THE RED SEA AND INDIAN OCEAN. I SAW THE LARGEST I HAVE SEEN IN DJBOUTI OVER 5 FEET LONG AND THERE WERE LOTS OF THEM IN ALL THE SELLERS STALLS BUT ALL WERE IN THEIR NATURAL STATE. THERE WAS ALSO MUCH EARLIER CONTACT WITH PEOPLE WHO USED SWORDS WITH GAURDS IN THAT REGION OF THE WORLD. LOTS OF SAILING SHIPS FROM MANY COUNTRYS FREQUENTED THE MAIN PORTS THERE ALSO. I SUSPECT THERE MUST BE A MARKET FOR THEM OR THERE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN SO MANY IN THE SHOPS, PERHAPS THEY ARE A INGREDIENT IN SOME ORIENTAL MEDICINES.

not2sharp · 7th June 2006, 07:19 PM

I found this image on google of someone buying a sword fish sword in Chile.

n2s

Tim Simmons · 7th June 2006, 04:48 PM

Whizzo!!!

Extract from- A.Meyer - Oceanic Art - Konemann. Great book and cheap as these things go-

Indigenous metalwork in New Guinea dates back to the 16th century, when Moluccan Muslim blacksmiths imported the know-how and raw materials, in the form of bronze, silver and iron bars, to the Triton Bay area of the Vogelkop Peninsula. Silver bracelets and iron spearheads were forged by Papuans blacksmiths using the vertical, twin piston type of bellows.
Don Diego de Prado y Tovar attests to this in his captains log of 13 December 1606. Biak Island and Doreh village in Cenderawasih Bay are mentioned in the late 18th and early 19th-century texts as major iron working centers. Dumont d'Urville saw a forge 1827, using the same type of bellows seen 200 years earlier by Don Diego. Small quantities of metal found there way to many parts of New Guinea in pre contact times, either through trade with western tribes and Asian merchants, or acquired by chance from shipwrecks. There were trade links between Micronesia and main land Asia. Spanish galleons bringing gold and silver from the colonies to Manila stopped off in the Marianas from the mid-16th century, and some must have been shipwrecked on there westward route from South America through the northern edge of central Polynesia.
The difference between metal and stone is that the sharp edge of a metal blade lasts longer and cuts quicker, deeper and cleaner than stone or shell. The metal blade gave the artist greater control and allowed him to develop decorative elements that could not be achieved with stone tools: complex surface decorations and intricate openwork forms. Carvers worked faster, which led to decadent forms and a decline in quality. {I would question that statement} The metal cut is usually straight, sharp, deep, clean and > cold<
The of a non metal tool makes a wide, shallow and smooth-sided cut and leaves tiny scratch marks. The bottom of the cut often has a matted appearance, where the blade has only crushed the fibers rather than cut them.

Quite interesting.

My bill seems to have been carved with stone or shell unless the metal tools were heavy and very blunt.

Picture - Blacksmiths Doreh Bay from Voyage pittoresque autour du monde Paris 1835

7th June 2006, 04:48 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Whizzo!!! Extract from- A.Meyer - Oceanic Art - Konemann. Great book and cheap as these things go- Indigenous metalwork in New Guinea dates back to the 16th century, when Moluccan Muslim blacksmiths imported the know-how and raw materials, in the form of bronze, silver and iron bars, to the Triton Bay area of the Vogelkop Peninsula. Silver bracelets and iron spearheads were forged by Papuans blacksmiths using the vertical, twin piston type of bellows. Don Diego de Prado y Tovar attests to this in his captains log of 13 December 1606. Biak Island and Doreh village in Cenderawasih Bay are mentioned in the late 18th and early 19th-century texts as major iron working centers. Dumont d'Urville saw a forge 1827, using the same type of bellows seen 200 years earlier by Don Diego. Small quantities of metal found there way to many parts of New Guinea in pre contact times, either through trade with western tribes and Asian merchants, or acquired by chance from shipwrecks. There were trade links between Micronesia and main land Asia. Spanish galleons bringing gold and silver from the colonies to Manila stopped off in the Marianas from the mid-16th century, and some must have been shipwrecked on there westward route from South America through the northern edge of central Polynesia. The difference between metal and stone is that the sharp edge of a metal blade lasts longer and cuts quicker, deeper and cleaner than stone or shell. The metal blade gave the artist greater control and allowed him to develop decorative elements that could not be achieved with stone tools: complex surface decorations and intricate openwork forms. Carvers worked faster, which led to decadent forms and a decline in quality. {I would question that statement} The metal cut is usually straight, sharp, deep, clean and > cold< The of a non metal tool makes a wide, shallow and smooth-sided cut and leaves tiny scratch marks. The bottom of the cut often has a matted appearance, where the blade has only crushed the fibers rather than cut them. Quite interesting. My bill seems to have been carved with stone or shell unless the metal tools were heavy and very blunt. Picture - Blacksmiths Doreh Bay from Voyage pittoresque autour du monde Paris 1835 Attached Images

7th June 2006, 04:20 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, You may well be right about the authenticity of the first sawfish bill. As for this one, it's good to have n2s's information about the sawfish bills in Valparaiso. It makes a fair amount of sense. Given the CITES rules (all sawfish are, I believe, listed species), I don't think I'd try to bring one back to the US. As for steel tools in Oceania, when they came in depends on where you are. Stone tools are still (or were very recently) used one one or two small islands (google on tepuke for an example of canoe building), while the Hawaiians were reshaping iron from nails and bolts very early on. They got the metal through trading with sailors and scavenging wrecks, and taught themselves the rest. Basically, I would guess that a piece could have been made with stone tools before ~1850 in Polynesia or Micronesia (depending on contact date), before 1900 in most of oceanic Melanesia, and before ~1950 in highland PNG (remember that many of the last were contacted until the 1930s or later). In general, steel tools make finer and more complex wood work possible. For instance, the scrolls on the current piece would be very difficult to chip out with a bone chisel. F

7th June 2006, 04:50 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE AFRICAN EXAMPLE LINKED BY Iainn IS WHAT I WOULD EXPECT A NATIVE MADE WEAPON USING A SAWFISH OR SWORDFISH BILL TO LOOK LIKE. CLUBS WHICH WERE THE MAIN STRIKING WEAPON THROUGHOUT OCEANA DO NOT HAVE GAURDS SO WHY WOULD THEY GO TO ALL THE EXTRA TROUBLE OF MAKEING ONE UNLESS IT WAS DUE TO EUROPEAN INFLUENCE. IT ALSO WOULD MAKE THE SWORD WEAKER AND HEAVIER AT THE HANDLE AND MORE DIFFICULT TO USE WITH BOTH HANDS. I ALSO SUSPECT THAT MANY OF THESE MAY COME FROM AFRICA AS THERE ARE VERY MANY LARGE SAWFISH IN THE RED SEA AND INDIAN OCEAN. I SAW THE LARGEST I HAVE SEEN IN DJBOUTI OVER 5 FEET LONG AND THERE WERE LOTS OF THEM IN ALL THE SELLERS STALLS BUT ALL WERE IN THEIR NATURAL STATE. THERE WAS ALSO MUCH EARLIER CONTACT WITH PEOPLE WHO USED SWORDS WITH GAURDS IN THAT REGION OF THE WORLD. LOTS OF SAILING SHIPS FROM MANY COUNTRYS FREQUENTED THE MAIN PORTS THERE ALSO. I SUSPECT THERE MUST BE A MARKET FOR THEM OR THERE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN SO MANY IN THE SHOPS, PERHAPS THEY ARE A INGREDIENT IN SOME ORIENTAL MEDICINES.

7th June 2006, 07:19 PM	#4
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	I found this image on google of someone buying a sword fish sword in Chile. n2s