Sudanese shamshir? anomaly

Edster · 29th December 2021, 12:59 AM

El Tounsy's trip was 1803-1810, but wasn't translated into English until 1845 and published in two parts in 1851 & 1854. That could place your sword earlier in the Fezzan trade market.

TVV · 29th December 2021, 08:50 AM

Here is a shamshir from Gavin Nugent's sold items, which based on the python(?) skin cover on the scabbard appears to have been used in an African, most likely Sudanese context at some point. Persian arms were imported and imitated in Sudan, but as discussed German imported blades were preferred, probably because of the ratio of cost to quality.

Richard G · 29th December 2021, 02:47 PM

This is purely speculation, but could it simply be an Ottoman (Egyptian or Hejaz) shamshir that has found its way south and has been 'sudanised' to local taste.
I would really like to know what is under that bulbous brass encased hilt. Is there any way of finding out?
It could be a pleasant surprise.
Regards
Richard

CharlesS · 31st December 2021, 01:35 PM

Great piece Jim!

Here are some curved examples I had posted some time ago, but yours is more along the lines of a much more Ottoman-influenced sword.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...curved+kaskara

Jim McDougall · 31st December 2021, 01:47 PM

Wow Charles!! Forgot those! THAT firmly places this in Sudan along with those great examples, thank you so much,

and its great hearing from you.
Richard, Teodor and Ed, thank you guys.
Great input and great to have all these insights.
It seems the Sudanese had a far greater scope of variations on the kaskara than I had realized.
Richard,
I dont have access to this sword right now, but would hesitate to dismantle the hilt. What would be possibly inside?

Edster · 31st December 2021, 06:26 PM

Jim,

The scabbards shape for both your & CharlesS sabers are virtually identical including the reptile skin of the strap attachments. Also, the diamond motifs on both grips and the dress on your scabbard (raised diamonds) are inverse kin to the same motif on many later kaskara including those from Ali Dinar's workshop (raised center with dot). I discuss the diamond motif in my Kaskara in Silver Dress paper.

Best,
Ed

Richard G · 31st December 2021, 10:24 PM

Jim,
This one, I believe, has a rhino horn hilt, (and a blade with etched thuluth script!)
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=349
I wonder if yours has a rhino horn hilt beneath the brass covering.
Regards
Richard

29th December 2021, 08:50 AM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,725	Here is a shamshir from Gavin Nugent's sold items, which based on the python(?) skin cover on the scabbard appears to have been used in an African, most likely Sudanese context at some point. Persian arms were imported and imitated in Sudan, but as discussed German imported blades were preferred, probably because of the ratio of cost to quality. Attached Images

29th December 2021, 12:59 AM	#1
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 440	El Tounsy's trip was 1803-1810, but wasn't translated into English until 1845 and published in two parts in 1851 & 1854. That could place your sword earlier in the Fezzan trade market.

29th December 2021, 02:47 PM	#3
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 415	This is purely speculation, but could it simply be an Ottoman (Egyptian or Hejaz) shamshir that has found its way south and has been 'sudanised' to local taste. I would really like to know what is under that bulbous brass encased hilt. Is there any way of finding out? It could be a pleasant surprise. Regards Richard

31st December 2021, 01:35 PM	#4
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Great piece Jim! Here are some curved examples I had posted some time ago, but yours is more along the lines of a much more Ottoman-influenced sword. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...curved+kaskara

31st December 2021, 01:47 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Wow Charles!! Forgot those! THAT firmly places this in Sudan along with those great examples, thank you so much, and its great hearing from you. Richard, Teodor and Ed, thank you guys. Great input and great to have all these insights. It seems the Sudanese had a far greater scope of variations on the kaskara than I had realized. Richard, I dont have access to this sword right now, but would hesitate to dismantle the hilt. What would be possibly inside?

31st December 2021, 06:26 PM	#6
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 440	Jim, The scabbards shape for both your & CharlesS sabers are virtually identical including the reptile skin of the strap attachments. Also, the diamond motifs on both grips and the dress on your scabbard (raised diamonds) are inverse kin to the same motif on many later kaskara including those from Ali Dinar's workshop (raised center with dot). I discuss the diamond motif in my Kaskara in Silver Dress paper. Best, Ed

31st December 2021, 10:24 PM	#7
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 415	Jim, This one, I believe, has a rhino horn hilt, (and a blade with etched thuluth script!) http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=349 I wonder if yours has a rhino horn hilt beneath the brass covering. Regards Richard