Officers sword pattern 1796 for Light Cavalry?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

To be precise, by the end of 1808 when the occupation by the enemy was imminent, the factory of Toledo evacuated, whith equipment and personel, to a new factory in Seville; however only active for a little while, during 1809, once in the same year the French advance caused its transfer to a new plant in Cadiz, where they stayed until, by order of 16 December 1813, it has returned to Toledo, then free of occupation by the enemy, whom had used its premises as an artillery park.
(Juan L. Calvó)

Thank you Fernando! May I ask, which reference by Mr. Calvo this is from. I need more data on the Spanish sword making firms of this period.
BTW, good call on the inscription partly obscured by langet, I totally missed that

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... good call on the inscription partly obscured by langet, I totally missed that ...

I just can't imagine that a blade with such inscription setup has originally belonged to the sword where it is presently .

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I ask, which reference by Mr. Calvo this is from. I need more data on the Spanish sword making firms of this period...

The mentioned reference comes in page 91 of Armamento Español en la Guerra de la Independencia, notwithstanding this may appear in other works of same author. He also refers in page 14 that, when the Independence (Peninsular) war initiated, the occupation of the factories of Placencia, Cataluña, Oviedo y Toledo either took place or there was no way to avoid it, reason why it was decided to admit the smiths evacuated or those that had ran away in new factories to organize in territory not controled by the invader. Factories were established in Seville, Cadiz, Granada, Jerez de La Frontera, Murcia, Valencia, and Berga, among others. All were occupied and dismantled, with exception of Cadiz and Ceuta. Worth to mention were Seville, Valencia and Cadiz. The one in Seville due to being the most important of those projected, despite having not exceeded the six months of its existence; the one in Valencia due to, being among those dismantled by the enemy, kept active for the largest space of time, since November 1808 until the beginning of 1812; and the one in Cadiz, as the main one among those that were not occupied by the enemy.


.

[fernando]

SABLES AND MOUNTED SWORDS, WITH STIRRUP IRON HILTS.
In the Illustrated Dictionary of Artillery, published between 1853 and 1866, the only illustrated munition model is the one called "English Sword" (Md. 1796 for Line Cavalry). The sabers do not include the "English model" (Md. 1796 for Light Cavalry), but its existence in Spanish museums and collections is no less abundant than that of the sword. These English models arrived in Spain on two occasions, during the War of Independence, and then during the Carlist War of 1833-1840, acquired by the Spanish Government from the English, which thus had the opportunity to get rid of the antiquated armaments that filled its warehouses. Connoisseurs affirm that the saber was an excellent combat weapon, not the sword, which was excessively heavy to "saber or carry".
With an iron stirrup hilt, the only munition models used by Spanish cavalry forces were the English ones from 1796, which at certain times were able to outnumber the Spanish in service. There is no doubt that in 1833, Salas referred to them when he stated how in 1814 "there were generally English swords and sabers in our cavalry." "ENGLISH SWORD" IN THE ILLUSTRATED DICTIONARY OF ARTILLERY (1853-66) In the Illustrated Dictionary of Artillery, published between 1853 and 1866, the only illustrated munition model is the one called "English Sword" (Md. 1796 for Line Cavalry ). The sabers do not include the "English model" (Md. 1796 for Light Cavalry), but its existence in Spanish museums and collections is no less abundant than that of the sword. These English models arrived in Spain on two occasions, during the War of Independence, and then during the Carlist War of 1833-1840, acquired by the Spanish Government from the English, which thus had the opportunity to get rid of the antiquated armaments that filled its warehouses. Connoisseurs affirm that the saber was an excellent combat weapon, not the sword, which was excessively heavy to "saber or carry". With a stirrup guard, in iron, there was an irregular "war" production in Spain, dating from between 1808 and 1814, but in general its manufacture would be said to be destined for "privates", meeting the demand of Chiefs and Officers and obeying the design "by fashion" rather than constituting "officer variants" of some munition models, which in any case could only be the British in 1796, of adoption to be defined as "accidental", caused by war. Among these "Officer" sabers, the most surprising are those whose blade includes the marks of the munition specimens, the crowned R followed by the monarch's figure, and the review Ca. D La. that indicates them destined to the 1st. Line Cavalry of the line. The use of munition blades was usual in the subsequent manufacture of "Officer" swords and sabers, but I consider the production of a curved saber model unacceptable, as a team of line cavalry troops, and the only explanation that occurs to me. This is the blades of the horsemen sword for line Cavalry, of the model introduced in 1802, which were later manipulated, "bent", for use in the construction of "Officer" sabers.

Resuming ...
Ilations on Calien's sword, factory, production date, customer, have still a wide open door. Do not forget that sword pattern 'reproductions' were made at Toledo, bearing the new date and not that of the original production. Still 1812 could be a customer (Campbel) whim; like he has been around by then ... and or his could be a Brit sword.


.



.

[Calien]

Good evening gents, thank you for your replies. I should add a few things to this conversation, for example the provenance. This came from the Sitwell legacy estate auction and allegedly it has been in the family for over 150 years. Secondly the scabbard without a doubt is made for this blade, it’s much too irregular to be randomly fitted into one, and the ears are just wide enough for the throat to fit in it as I will provide in the pictures. Lastly there is an image of a Osborne and Gumby 1796 clip point saber with the same scabbard and as far as I’m aware they were only made between 1810-1815. Part of the signature being under the langets really doesn’t raise any meaning to me as many makers signed their name under the langets (French, German ect) i do have issues with the dates though because officially Toledo was shut down there until 1814, but the British did have control of it during several months in 1812.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Calien

... i do have issues with the dates though because officially Toledo was shut down there until 1814, but the British did have control of it during several months in 1812.

Calien, i have burnt my eyelashes searching the Web, under various contexts, on such British control of the factory during some time 1812, but found no results. Can you give us a clue as to where we can learn that ?
Thank you.

[Calien]

Originally Posted by fernando

Calien, i have burnt my eyelashes searching the Web, under various contexts, on such British control of the factory during some time 1812, but found no results. Can you give us a clue as to where we can learn that ?
Thank you.

What I meant to say is that after the battle of Salamanca the British liberated central Spain including Madrid and Toledo for a period of about 5 months, after the French concentrated their army he retreated to Portugal again until 1813. So Toledo itself was under British/Spanish control for a few months that year.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Calien

What I meant to say is that after the battle of Salamanca the British liberated central Spain including Madrid and Toledo for a period of about 5 months, after the French concentrated their army he retreated to Portugal again until 1813. So Toledo itself was under British/Spanish control for a few months that year.

Indeed the battles of Salamanca and Talavera were a strategic move in war.
However i would guess that, the factory of Toledo having been emptied from equipment and personel to tansfer all to Seville (and later Cadiz) arguably such facilities would be operational during that short period. Temporary British control of the city would no be the same thing as having weapons being fabricated; no tools, no mills ... no resources.
Interesting how a Toledan blogger cares more about the Spanish coming back to the city as he doesn't mention the British, who were potentially more presential in neighbour Madrid.

"Toledo continuó estando ocupada por tropas tras la retirada francesa en agosto de 1812. Llegaron las tropas españolas, “los brigantes de Palarea, los del Abuelo y las del Comisario de Yepes”. Se hicieron fiestas por la proclamación de la Constitución y el fin de la Guerra...pero la situación seguía siendo grave. Ahora la ciudad debía acomodar a las tropas españolas, pero los mayores alojamientos habían sido destruidos y la situación de penuria azotaba todos los barrios."

Toledo continued to be occupied by troops after the French withdrawal in August 1812. The Spanish troops arrived, “the brigantes de Palarea, those of the Grandfather and those of the Comisario de Yepes”. Parties were held for the proclamation of the Constitution and the end of the War ... but the situation was still serious. Now the city had to accommodate the Spanish troops, but the main lodgings had been destroyed and the situation of hardship plagued all the neighborhoods

[Calien]

Here is the Osborn and Gumby

[fernando]

Well Calien, if the British were in control of the Toledo Factory for a long while in 1812, that changes the perspective; whether it is possible that Campbel commissioned a sword with his name on the blade, or at least this opens a door to such probability. This considering that the factory was fully operational by then and he managed to organize blade smith, hilt artisan, scabbard fitter and engraver to set it up.
By the way, i don't recall anyone having questioned that the scabbard would not be the proper one for your sword.
However the inscriptions being partly hidden by the langets, a practice that, as you note, often occurs, i view it that the (some) blade makers, not being able to realize which type of hilts will be mounted on them, do not ponder to leave space enough for the inscription to be fully visible. A question of common sense, i guess.
Also new for me is that Toledo also forged this type of blades with yelmen; but that should be no surprise, as my knowledge of these is extremely limited.
Stay safe.


.

[Radboud]

The scabbard raises a couple of flags with me, rings are out of period. They could be replacements, but at the time split rings would be used for officer swords.

Also I can’t see the brazing seam where the scabbard joins on the underside. Both of these could point to a later manufacture date for the scabbard at least.

[Calien]

There could definitely be something to that Fernando, maybe the blade was taken back to England and furnished there? The date is what really throws me off though. I can also said that I’ve spent countless hours looking at these models and I’ve never seen one with small langets like this, the blade is also quite unique but the tip past the yelman certainly has that Spanish style with a flat center and wide symmetrical distal taper on both sides.. Radbiund could you explain that a bit? When I get home I can take some better pictures of the scabbard.