Sword for identification

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I go along with Iain and his astute reference to the 'cuff' etc.
It seems to me that this resembles a Kirghiz (Kyrgyz) type sword that I saw in a panel of line drawings in a book by Michael Gorelik. In research on the swords of Steppes tribes years ago David Nicolle recommended him, I dont have the book handy so cant recall title.

Similar swords to these are in David Nicolle's works, and there are various types of these in similarity. These tribal groups' history is complex but fascinating and it seems were involved in the evolution of the saber.
I am wondering if the curious curving of the blade on this one has to do with the ceremonial 'killing' of the sword being placed in burials. Not sure of the extent of this practice in these Steppes contexts.

While these swords can in many perspectives be seen as 'Oriental' or 'Asian' they do have aspects that play into European history with respect to the assimilation of these tribes into such populations such as noted in Hungary etc.

This is not a steppes sword or design as we'd classically define it. Rather it filters out of Persia and finds common use among both Islamic and Byzantine forces perhaps as early as the 8th century but certainly by the 9th (see Bashir's Arts of the Islamic Knight for examples) . This one was likely in Crimea because the byzantines controlled the south of the peninsula into the late middle ages. Nothing particularly tribal here. These swords are all over Byzantine wall paintings and art. I've seen them turn up even in Poland. One was uncovered a few years ago there. Just a few references...

Aleksić M. 2010. Some typological features of Byzantine spatha. Зборник радова Византолошког института XLVII, 121-136

Bakradze, I., 2011 Arms and Armory of Georgian Warriors during the 10th - 11th CC. (According to the Archaeological and Written Sources), Works of the Institute of the History of Georgia. Tbilisi, 4. pp. 71–74, 89

Baranov G. V., 2011 Byzantine (Mediterranean) 9th — 11th century swords with sleeve cross-guards, Materials in Archaeology and History of Ancient and Medieval Crimea, Archaeology, History, Numismatics, Sigillography and Epigraphy volume 9 Moscow Tyumen Nizhnevartovsk, 248-283

Bashir M. 2008. The Arts of the Muslim Knight: The Furusiyya Art Foundation Collection. Milano: Skira

Kamburov, S., 2017 Early Medieval “Arabic” Swords in Bulgarian Lands Today, Civilization Boundaries Volume 25, Number 3, 268-297

Rabovyanov, D. 2011, Early Medieval Sword Guards from Bulgaria, Archeologia Bulgarica XV, 2, 73-86

Yotov, V. 2011 A new Byzantine type of swords (7th — 11th centuries). Nish i Vizantiјa IX, 113-124

It's important not to confuse these swords with steppes sabers and blades with a 'tonkou' something entirely different in construction.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Iain. Well explained and great references. Forgot about Bashir's book.

[ariel]

Evgeny,
You have the sword in your hands and it is difficult to argue with you about the configuration of the blade.
The impression of recurvature at the distal part of the blade may indeed be an optical illusion due to the axial bend there. But I still get an impression that the proximal 2/3 of the blade do show some saber-like curvature.
Can you put a long straight ruler along the spine from the quillon to the beginning of the bend and see whether there is a gap?
Crimea was populated by multiple ethnicities , from the Golden Horde to Europeans. The pommel does not resemble any “ oriental” example and the deep wide fuller is also, IMHO, not typical for “oriental” blades of 14-16 century or earlier. There are , however 2 Golden Horde swords of the 12th century ( excavated at Tekstilschik and Kairka) with distinctly yataghan-like recurved blades.

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by ariel

Evgeny,
You have the sword in your hands and it is difficult to argue with you about the configuration of the blade.
The impression of recurvature at the distal part of the blade may indeed be an optical illusion due to the axial bend there. But I still get an impression that the proximal 2/3 of the blade do show some saber-like curvature.
Can you put a long straight ruler along the spine from the quillon to the beginning of the bend and see whether there is a gap?
Crimea was populated by multiple ethnicities , from the Golden Horde to Europeans. The pommel does not resemble any “ oriental” example and the deep wide fuller is also, IMHO, not typical for “oriental” blades of 14-16 century or earlier. There are , however 2 Golden Horde swords of the 12th century ( excavated at Tekstilschik and Kairka) with distinctly yataghan-like recurved blades.

Hi Ariel,
At this moment the sword isn't in my hands, but I asked to do such kind of measurement of the curvature of the blade. The result is on photo. So I was mistaken when I said that the blade is straight - it has a clear curvature.

[ariel]

Thanks!
Sorry for bothering you again, but this pic looks more informative than the earlier ones.
What is the width of the blade by the handle vs. close to the tip? Is there some kind of yelman-like configuration?

I also do not see much similarity with the " steppes" ( nomadic) swords. It looks at least a couple of centuries younger. I would not exclude some Ottoman or even Zaporozhian cossacs Kilij/pala.
You can look for books by Denis Toichkin ( in Ukrainian). I am not feeling well these days ( nothing terrible or dangerous, just some hip muscle tear), stay in bed most of the time and have codein with every meal and any occasional snacks. Cannot think very straight and am useless as a " consultant":-(((
Sorry.

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by ariel

Thanks!
Sorry for bothering you again, but this pic looks more informative than the earlier ones.
What is the width of the blade by the handle vs. close to the tip? Is there some kind of yelman-like configuration?

I also do not see much similarity with the " steppes" ( nomadic) swords. It looks at least a couple of centuries younger. I would not exclude some Ottoman or even Zaporozhian cossacs Kilij/pala.
You can look for books by Denis Toichkin ( in Ukrainian). I am not feeling well these days ( nothing terrible or dangerous, just some hip muscle tear), stay in bed most of the time and have codein with every meal and any occasional snacks. Cannot think very straight and am useless as a " consultant":-(((
Sorry.

Ariel, you do not bother me at all, on the contrary, I am very pleased with your participation in the discussion

The width of the blade is 3,1 cm near the crossguard, 2,8 cm in the middle part and 3,1 cm near the tip. So the blade is almost the same width along the entire length.

Get well soon! Поправляйтесь!

[Jim McDougall]

I wanted add some of my own perspective here in line with the excellent views that have been placed. While I have a great deal of familiarity with the swords of Asia, the Steppes and Central Asia into Europe, I cannot claim the focused expertise of the members who have posted on this thread.

I observed earlier that the sword in the OP reminded me of Kirghiz type swords of the Steppes from recollections of line drawings on these swords in books I did not have on hand presently and from research over 25 years ago. As Ian noted from earlier threads there were elements of similarity to 'Siberian' sabers in certain studies.

Here I would point out that the tunkou, while a predominant element of these types of sabers, is not a defining element of 'all' Steppes swords, though these are prevalent it seems in the varying types from the many tribal groups.

In revisiting the resources I had been recalling finally, I found the plate of swords I had mentioned., including 'Kirghiz' examples. What was notable in the plate was illustrating the Kirghiz practice (not exclusive to them, but notable to Steppes tribal groups in degree) of ritually 'killing' a sword before depositing in a burial by heating and bending it rendering it no longer viable.

This is why I brought this up earlier.....influence.

In "The Long Sword and Scabbard Slide in Asia", William Trousdale, 1975, p.118...it discusses these and that "...we have traced a great circular diffusion route, from China through Central Asia to the Meditteranean and Black Sea regions and BACK (capitals mine) eastward across the north Eurasian steppe to the borders of China".
It is noted that this was not a closed circle, and northern extensions are hypothetical, and various offshoots were of course prevalent.

This emphatically illustrates the complex and profound diffusion of these sword forms ACROSS the Steppes, into European regions and others including Balkan, Baltic, of course Byzantine (incl. Meditteranean), in an extended wave over centuries of nomadic migrations.

The Kirghiz, tribes of northern parts of the Steppes gradually had assimilated into Mongol hordes by the early 13th c. along with other Turkic groups.
As we know these Mongol hordes moved westward and were well established in East Europe, notably Hungary.

To think that the influences of these numerous Turkic groups were not carried into Mongol hordes or any other tribal assimilations and included in varied degree and interpretation as these groups went through these regions seems a bit arbitrary.

Here I would note that Crimea in the times considered was primarily Tatar, and as noted Byzantine in southern regions. The Tatars were of course of Steppes tribal groups, while the Byzantines had weapons which had in degree absorbed both influences from the east (as noted), as well as the Romans (early Roman swords seem often to have had 'cuffs' over blade roots).

I hope these notes will substantiate my suggestions of Steppes thus Eastern influences which of course were filtered through Iranian conduit as well.
The pommel is an interesting but not defining element of the sword we discuss.

These long swords and various elements accompanying them were quite literally key in the evolution of the saber and swords as used over centuries in the west, and reflected many aspects and elements of the diverse forms carried westward.

We know the alleged provenence of this early sword, so with that we can presume the potential classification of groups it may have belonged to.
However attempting to classify this sword specifically by form alone seems it would be futile. Regardless, it is an outstanding sword reflecting the numerous influences I have suggested as possible factors.

Plate 1: from "the Mongol Warlords", David Nicolle, p.41

Plate 2: from "Arms and Armor of the Crusading Era 1050-1350". 1988,
#1443, a saber from Esztergum., Hungary (10-11th c) near Visigrad, first capital of Hungary.
It is noted these were based on earlier examples of Central Asian forms used by Turkic warriors.

[cornelistromp]

see the examples of Baranov sword type Galovo.

in following link

http://truehistoryshop.com/byzantine-militarist-swords/


The sleeve of the sword of post 1 indeed seems reversed because the whiskers are not pointing towards the point.

Then the question of dating remains.
were there In the 11th century single-edged blades with such a pronounced fuller ?, or has this type Galovo been common for centuries?

best,

[Iain]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

see the examples of Baranov sword type Galovo.

in following link

http://truehistoryshop.com/byzantine-militarist-swords/


The sleeve of the sword of post 1 indeed seems reversed because the whiskers are not pointing towards the point.

Then the question of dating remains.
were there In the 11th century single-edged blades with such a pronounced fuller ?, or has this type Galovo been common for centuries?

best,

That link basically uses all the papers and sources I posted.

Thanks for the clear picture Evgeny of the blade.

These cuff hilts can appear with a curved blade. There's actually a couple hiding in the link you posted although with slightly different designs but the family resemblence is clear. In an image from the collection of a private Bulgarian citizen. I'm attaching the original image here for reference, 4th sword from the right and second from the left.